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CONTRARY OR SHADOW TOTEMS DISCUSSION
By Maftet

Hi
I've been looking about to see if there are any posts on shadow totems, but no luck. I'm not very
good at using "search" so if I have missed it I'd appreciate any help finding it. Otherwise, if it
hasn't been discussed yet, has anyone any experiences or thoughts on the subject?

CinnamonMoon:
A totem is a totem, there are contrary teachings, those that come when we ignore their traits
within ourselves and call lessons to us. But Shadow Totems standing apart is a newly coined
term with a newly coined definition and I feel it’s misleading in that sense. One might say they
have a Shadow side which would merely be learning a lesson from them through the School of
Hard Knocks…by experience.

Mouse:
Maftet, are you referring to the shadow aspects of a Totem? I've seen "Shadow Totem"
mentioned online several times, and have taken it to be the aspect of a Totem with which one
isn't familiar or which one is avoiding. For instance, walking with Mouse, I am good at seeing
details, scrutinizing... but, if I don't stay centered, I can be zooming in so much that I lose the
larger picture, and get obsessive about a single detail that is, to my mind, entirely dominating the
issue. I then need to take a step back, re-center, to see the forest for the trees again. Does this
kind of thing start to approach what you mean?

This is what I found at Wolfs_Moon ~Shadow Totems~ The Shadow Totem is the Animal Spirit
that brings forth unresolved issues for resolving, unhealed pain that it may be healed, and the
Personality Center operating from destructive tendencies that we might absorb and integrate the
Lessons of the Past.

Maftet:
Yes, Mouse, that was the link I found too. I was wondering just how "valid" this idea is? One
website (can't remember where at the moment) it suggested the animals we fear/dislike or have
phobias about might be "shadow" totems that have a lesson in the fact that we fear or dislike
something that is mirrored in ourselves. Like hating someone because they have our own worst
faults. It's an interesting thought.

Northernwolf:
When you think about it, we refer to shadow lessons which is pretty much what was described in
the what mouse said. I guess it's the logical step that some coined the term shadow to totems that
bring forth those situations or those lessons. Personally I don’t find it very accurate as I feel they
are there to guide us through the process and maybe reveal a shadow lesson to us but they are
still totems and do not, at least in my experience manifest or incorporate what we so often
associate to shadow lessons in their demeanor or the way they approach us. sometimes there are
totems to we fear and in that aspect I have to say yes they represent shadow lessons but once the
working relationship is established the perception we had of them being scary or whatever fades.
Well at least that's my 2 cents on it. My whole point is based on the fact of the totems being
shadowy but in terms of them representing a fear etc. that makes sense. But I think it was
important to mention that the initial perception changes once the issue is aborted.

Arctickaiku:
Very interesting Maftet, that you should bring this subject up. Because.......... I am just in a
process of painting a picture, about the Dingo I saw while back....that was "shining". And this
"shining" left an "after taste" ...a feeling about how cat-like dingo's are.....in their energy
patterns ..... So in my painting the depicted Dingo has a shadow of a cat. It is like their "astral
double" or "energy-pattern-body" .... or something like that.....which I see as their "shadow".

Maftet:
Your painting sound lovely, Arctic. The idea of showing an animals inner self in its shadow is a
very clever idea. I'd love to be able to put the feelings into pictures or paintings. That must be
very satisfying. I read your story about the dingo. I get that bright/clear thing with people mostly.
Usually it's people who end up being important in my life in some way. People who teach me a
lesson in some way. I have a crow here who is bright as well as persistent. He/she keeps coming
back to our house and shrieks like a seagull! So I can't make any mistake that this is "my" crow. I
get the feeling it's a female crow.

Arctickaiku:
Painting ..... well, frustrating is the word ...or pain in the neck .... but it is a tool to bring stuff up
from subconscious, or express something words cannot convey....I knew this lady once, who told
me that a crow had adopted her and if I remember right, she told me that this particular crow
used a special call, just for her. So it sounds like you have been "adopted" as well .... how lovely
... I love crows.

Maftet:
“frustrating" "pain in the neck"? Sounds like your creativity is a lot like mine! with me it's
poetry. I get this feeling I want to get out and I start ok, but if I try to hard I turn into Dr. Seuss
instead of Shakespeare!

Mouse:
Dr. Seuss had a very powerful Clown chakra! Don't underestimate his power!

Maftet:
Mouse, I needed that reminder today! Thank you. I try to be serious and I come out sounding
silly. There's a good lesson in that as well.

Arctickaiku:
Maftet, I'd like to introduce you to Michael Leunig, an Australian cartoonist:
www.its.caltech.edu/~kai/leunig.html (if you don't know his work already....) Think you'd like him
(?).

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
I do not think I have a crow, much less one that likes to row.
I would not have one there, But I would likely have one in the air.
Yes, possibly I have a crow, and maybe he really does like to row.
I'm not sure how I would know...it's WAY too early in the morning for me to wonder so...
I do not like to row, No Mouse, No Arctic, no no no.

Maftet:
Ha! SEDD! That poem's perfect.
I think that I will never know,
The reason why I have this crow,
This crow is big,
This crow is black,
This crow just keeps on coming back!

Arctic thank you thank you! You were right, I love this Australian poet's work. It's wonderful. So
simple and so wise. It always amazes me how discussions on boards like this can take their own
route and become something unintended and even better than expected. Like planting an
unknown seed and waiting to see what interesting plant grows from it. wonderful!
Speaking of Seuss, did you all know yesterday was his 100th birthday? my turn, my turn....

Shadows come and shadows go
Some shadows stay very low
Some shadows help us learn and grow
And then step back and watch us flow
Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
Oh dear, oh me,
What have I DONE!
Turned all of us into Seusses
And a serious subject into fun?
Could it be crow medicine
Sneaking its way into this thread?
Crow from the shadows
Guiding our way ahead?

Sunflower:
SEDD, Another bit of synchronicity (wow, that's a hard word to type!) Yesterday I was talking
to a friend about "Trickster" the god/mythological being in every culture who is the joker who
turns our world upside down and forces us to grow through chaos and laughter. I think crow
would fit that category well.

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
Interesting and educational...
I noticed something else while playing around with these rhymes (I apologize if this throws
things off again) Rhymes are like verbal/energetic mirrors! I know there are several people
working on mirroring right now and I just wanted to share that because I found it fascinating! I
never knew. Puts Seuss in a different light, not to mention spells and music! I actually do have
some experience with Crow Medicine but that's been in the navigational aspect. I had, and still
have when the need is there, a guide called Following Crow who was teaching me. But I've not
been in those lessons for several months now. It comes and goes.

Maftet:
WOW There are a lot of synchronicities today. For instance I wrote my poem before I read
SEDD's forecast about flowing. Something about flowing just felt right today. I just got tricked
by the tricksters. I posted my reply to the empathic reading and ZAP the board vanished! When I
tried to log back ez-board told me it didn't exist. I had to get back here by going through all the
back doors. and today my desktop is coyote. I have all the animals I've found saved as random
alternating desktops and screensavers (thanks to Web shots free downloads). I let them decide
who's going to be with me for the day. I'm on a tight budget so this was to be my version of
animal totem cards until I could afford to get the real thing one day. Now I'm finding it's working
well (it's matched my dream animals to desktops three times in the last two weeks) so I might
just stay with this.

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
Where there's a will, Creator will find a way. People often come to a place like this looking for a
'teacher'. I send them out to watch grass grow LOL. Anything and everything is your teacher.
You don't 'need' cards or the person on the mountain top. I'm fond of telling this story. Many
years ago, I was in a bit of a rut and asking Creator for a 'sign' or message. I didn't know which
end was up at the time but I was willing and listening. I went to the store that day and for no
reason at all, found myself in the stationary department where I saw the cover of a meeting
planner - big as life. On the cover was a pic of a sunset and the words - "Life is a journey, not a
destination." Hit me right between the eyes. At the time, I'd been so focused on the 'destination', I
wasn't paying attention to the journey. (among other lessons I got from it) And so I learned for a
little Hallmark meeting planner.

Maftet:
Thanks SEDD, I've been thinking that myself lately. It's nice to hear you echo my hunch. Your
story made me laugh as it brought back memories. Once in my early 20s I went through a bad
patch and although I felt I knew what Creator wanted I wasn't prepared/ready to hear and kept
pushing for an answer because I basically wasn't getting the answer I thought was "right". (hope
that makes sense) Anyway. I finally made an appointment to speak to a religious leader on what
was bothering me. My gut feeling was that Creator didn't view this as necessary, but my basic
religious upbringing was that this was the "right" thing to do.

On the way to the appointment I felt very strong I was doing the wrong thing so I set an
impossible (I thought) sign as a test.

I decided that if a sky blue car passed me on the way there I wasn't meant to go. had to be sky
blue, no other blue. About two minutes after deciding this a sky blue car came racing along the
road and overtook me. Still not wanting to believe (glory be -I was stubborn when I was young!)
I thought to myself "That doesn't count. It didn't PASS me, it OVERTOOK me."

Exactly as I thought this the sky blue car, now in front of me, slammed brakes, did a complete
turn and zoomed back down the road PAST me in the opposite direction! talk about having to
have the answer thumped into my head!

Sunflower:
Maftet, That's so funny about Web shots. I used to do the same thing. It was great the way the
animals were picked. There was always some aspect of that animal that pertained to the day. I
used them as my screensaver, too. And it always seemed that as I was walking by the computer,
the same animal would pop up almost every time. As if saying "hint-hint, Sunflower" I really
miss my web shots, but it just took up too much space on my 'puter. Maybe I'll download it again
anyhow. We'll see what happens.

DancingDeer:
Maftet ROFL I loved your story about the sky blue car!!! Be careful what you ask for..... you're
likely to get it!

Dr. Seuss has always been a favorite of mine- and I was privileged to meet Theodore Geissel
when I was about 5yrs old. He came to my home town for a book signing and because he had
gone to college there. I have an autographed copy of Horton Hears a Who that is a prized
possession. His stories are so wonderful and timeless. And it is true, I truly believe, that rhymes
stay with you longer than straight prose. And as a parent, those books were ones I could read
over and over again to my sons.....

Crow synchronicity: this morning I was standing in my front room looking out the window at the
sunrise when a large crow landed almost on top of a robin who was pulling an earth worm out of
the ground. Crow grabbed the other end of the worm as it came out of the earth and there ensued
a ferocious tug of war between Crow and Robin. I felt sort of sorry for Worm, but one of worm's
lessons is Ability to wiggle out of difficult situations..... At one point a car went by on the street
and distracted Crow and Robin and they both dropped their end of Worm.... who quickly slid
back into the earth....

Jimmy WhiteBear:
After reading through this i am still confused as to what "Shadow Totem" is? Never heard of it
but this thought occurred.

Example, Medicine cards;
I daily draw a card to see what i am dealing with in that day but sometimes don't quite
understand what the animal is telling me. I then draw an other card and depending on the
influence of the card, it will be placed either on top of that card or under the first one drawn.

Another example is this,
Say I draw Bear and my basic lesson is healing through introspection but Cougar either falls
from the deck or I am not sure about what it is i am to meditate on. I draw the cougar and place
it on top and the picture becomes a little more clearer. My message is that in order for me to
heal what needs to be healed, I must take charge of what is going on in my life, have faith that
the answers are with me and walk the sacred path of Individuality. Bear is the totem being
worked with, Cougar is the influence or what might be deemed "Shadow totem". The term
"SHADOW TOTEM" I have never heard or used. For what it's worth!

Arctickaiku:
Thank you Bear for bringing this back to the question. I am so grateful, that Maftet brought this
topic up, for the word shadow started ringing bells for me, sending me on a search, what my own
culture has to say about the shadow totems:

And I found out that every person was said to have a "shadow self" (a shadow deity, a shadow
soul) ... that " walks in front of a person", and leaves the body at the time of death. After death
this shadow soul transforms, ( transmutes ?) ... and moves to the upper world, from where it will
reincarnate back to earth, into a newly born.

In Arctic regions, the shaman would "raise" his/her shadow nature, that was called "the self" in
the old times. (Nowadays we understand the self to mean self-image and it's projections). The
term soul retrieval also referred to this shadow self.

Animals were also seen as having a shadow self .... a shadow soul. In the old days everybody in
the Arctic regions was believed to be a descendant of a totemic animal fore-father, making this
animal the clan's totem i.e. deity. Sometimes a shaman would call his/her ancestral totems
shadow soul to assist ...(among other animal-spirit-helpers).

All these stories of the old shamans works and spells were put in 8- beat rhyme form.
These forums have SO helped me to understand "Spirit Names" and Totems better. For this I
truly thank each and every one of you, from the bottom of my heart. Must have been the reason
why I was drawn here in the first place. But now I feel that I really have to gather my energies ...
daring and focus ... and have faith for the lone path "appointed" ... It feels scary like is this my
madness .... or sanity that I am facing ... But Honor acts like faith and gives us the daring to go
on ...facing our own "shadows".

I am truly grateful for this forum to be in existence.

Thank you also SEDD for your word "row" !!!! It totally send me off spinning. In our culture
....in the old days.... 2 people would lock hands and move back and forth singing these 8-beat
rhymes. Like rowing a "Spirit Boat". Awesome ! Silver Eagle !!!!

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
LOL! I had no idea! I love it when stuff like that happens.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
In the time of the ancients, they didn't concern themselves with ego (self). The Shaman or
medicine person was always focused on the "Clan" or "The people". Soul work was to help the
sick and retrieve the splintered soul/spirit and heal those in need. The "spiritboat" was one of two
things, Either the boat to carry the soul to the spirit world or a vehicle in which several
Shaman(s) would journey to the other realms to retrieve spirit animals, or splintered souls, etc.;
again, to heal the sick. The teachings I have received from my Elders and the ancients have
always been to keep it simple and don't look for answers that one may never find or understand.
A Duck is a duck, a cow a cow and a horse is a horse--- of course of course!...Please, I am not
trying to offend anyone but, it seems that some are inventing new terminology and trying to
explain it in new words which has left me baffled. As Cinn has said in the beginning, A totem is
a totem!... They don't hide in the shadows, they step back and let another do its work. They work
in conjunction with each other---(Team work)....

Arctickaiku:
Exactly Bear, totally agreeing with you. The word "shadow" is not one that Native Americans
use, (by the sound of things !!!!) .... but is a word used by Siberians ....I tried to look in the
Internet for a site, that could explain this, but only found one using the Sami word for it. Extract
from the site: “The spirit of the shaman, says Holmberg,1 is called sueje (originally ‘shadow)
among the Scandinavian Lapps. This is believed to take on the shape of various animals, and in
particular reindeer, fish, bird or snake, at will. These animals are the means by which a shaman
succeeds in winning back the souls of the dead from the Underworld. Among the Siberian tribes
too he tells us that the special bird-costume worn by the shaman is said to be his ‘shadow’ or
shape in which the spirit travels.2 Holmberg is of the opinion that this costume originally
represented his soul animal.”

Jimmy WhiteBear:
Within my tribe there is a word we use when we speak of the "shadow or spirit" which is "Oogsi'gamu',
which means The Spirit or the shadow that walks with us" Most indigenous words have
double meanings. "Oog-si'gamu'" can also mean that when you stand in the sunlight and look
down, you see your shadow. "Oog-si'gamu'"

To bring it back into the spiritual context.

"Oog-si'gamu'" the shadow or spirit that walks with us is the spiriteguide, An Angel or whatever
it is you believe that "spirit" is. Keeping it simple and within the confines of its truer meaning,
The spirit that walks with us is our shadow. They go everywhere with us and are always there to
help, to guide. On occasions when we are connected to the Grandfather Great Spirit and truly
grounded to the Earth Mother. They will sometimes out of the corners of our eye, reveal
themselves to us in the form of a person or an animal, "Something" and it will disappear as
quickly as you look. They have allowed us to observe for a minute flash in time, see them and
experience they're true essence. The totem spirits will also do the same only when we truly need
to see, in the physical realms what the spiritual realms hold.

Meditation allows us to see what is within our Psyche that we need to heal within ourselves so
we can find that minute second to connect with the "Oog-si'gamu'" when we have reached Total
Balance. Total balance is a place reached and maintained for very short periods of time because
Total balance is always that fine line we try to walk. By doing so, we attain some sense of
serenity, some sense of peace with the issues that we have worked on to help ourselves feel
whole.

Our Spirit guides, animal spirit-guides, the Earth Mother, The Creator and all of creation reach
out to us and all we have to do is extend an open hand and heart to greet it. Quit debating
whether it was the chicken or the egg that came first, it doesn't matter! Both taste good when we
are hungry!...

The path of the Spiritual person is to help and heal the person, the people, the clan, the tribe, the
earth, the air, the water---- "Creation!". Not re-invent the wheel!...

A Shaman is a Shaman no matter what part of the universe he/she comes from. One may do
something different from the other but in the end, achieves the same results. Not right, not
wrong! it just is the way!... The shaman sits and waits for the others to come to gather, prays to
his spirit guides and creator, that he may help the people in need. He called the others to sit with
him for the people he says have strayed. What will we do?, what can we do? To bring them back
he prays...

Watchituga:
I am not really well versed in the existing teachings about animal spirits. (To me it is seems that
it is not the only way of coming to understand things. It is just one way. It seems that
understandings can be reached everywhere from things within and without in many different
forms.)

We have complex personalities and it may be that the animal spirits in some way map on to
aspects of personality, either know or unknown. Sometimes the personality is not yet fully
integrated. In this case an animal spirit may come in a way that reflects that the way that part
(or some parts) of the personality are working in a way that is no longer helpful. And the animal
spirit may bring that understanding and allow a person to work with it to transform that aspect
of personality into something positive. This is what I feel is intended by the term "shadow totem"
that someone has coined.

The discussion of shadows is interesting though. Sometimes we can look at some living thing,
and it is as if something from within it separates from it. This can appear like a shadow, but
there will be other things that come to be known at the same time. A three dimensional shadow
shaped like a particular animal used to often be with me as a child. Sometimes I would play with
my own shadow in the sun and imagine something deeper. Occasionally another shadow would
appear with mine, and this may seem to hold something too. It seemed to be so easy for a child to
become immersed in these shadows and come to see things a different way. I wonder if this is
something like the way some cultures saw things.

“In the time of the ancients, they didn't concern themselves with ego (self).”

That is an interesting comment. I think man is meant to come to be in harmony with
surroundings. People are social animals and they do best when they consider each other as an
interdependent group. And they do best when they consider all things as interdependent. But
there is an interesting paradox. One has to come to know oneself in order to come to be in that
harmony, to strip out those exterior aspects of mind and emotions that work against this being
positive and in harmony, and doing this may bring a greater sense of the connection and make
one less of isolated self and more connected on all levels. I think it is a matter of degree.

Sometimes people talk of ego in order to differentiate themselves, to say others have ego but they
don't. That is so funny. They and others sometimes use this idea of ego to avoid facing issues
about themselves, to sweep them under the carpet instead of resolving them. This may lead to
something like being on their own mountain and in their own tower on that mountain and
looking down on all of the valleys and people in holes, which are really the other mountains with
people in their towers. And the towers can kind of block out the light. But perhaps if they could
really reached the top of the mountain they would look down and see that all of the people were
really travelling up different paths on the same mountain, and they were just in different places
looking from angles where comparison was not really possible and building towers part way up
which get knocked down before they can travel further up the mountain where they can see a
little more of what was and is across a wider part of the lower part of the mountain. But perhaps
even from that perspective the people in the distance appear too small for them to know which is
which with any degree of accuracy.

Sometimes it is very hard for people to accept that other people are not as they. If a person feels
they have grown and they have confidence, they may have a strong criteria of what should be,
and it may appear to them that other people / groups have ego but that they themselves don't.
This is so funny because they have a sense of isolation from those others arising from this. They
have a strong sense of this self (this ego), which separates them from many others, but they are
unaware of this.

Things are so interconnected even on the surface in communications, trade etc. in the world
today, that the "clan" more clearly and obviously than ever before is the entire human race.
This "shadow totem" may even be considered something that shows a person how they
themselves are not fully seeing this and their place in this scheme, because of parts of themselves
being hidden and not yet brought into their most positive and happy way of being.

Earthwalker:
Just a thought/ question. Could the answer be much simpler and reflect how we catch glimpses
of totems and guides in the mundane; often they present themselves as a glimpse which is caught
in somewhat of a shadow and visualized as a change in focus takes place.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
E.G.O. = Ease God Out

Earthwalker:
I like the picture Wachituga painted about all paths leading up the same mountain and the view
being different from where one is standing. In terms of understanding the world of Spirit I agree
to an extent. Still, I think diversification is an equally important component of the discussion.
While I think it is important to look at the animal kingdom (which we are all part of) as we look
at the interconnectedness of the communities within the kingdom that form the functioning
whole, I think it is one-sided if we also don’t look at what makes the kingdom work. Balance to
my mind is not achieved through sameness but is through differentiation and diversification.

While humans maybe social as is the animal kingdom there is a wide diversification of type
within what is labeled social. Look at the animal kingdom as examples. Some animals groups are
social such as Baboons and other are not necessarily labeled as such; panthers being
representative of ones less social in nature. Still each has its rightful place in the environment. I
think the human population is equally as diversified even though a sub-set of the animal
kingdom. Therein, diversification to me is of equal importance to the whole as is respecting the
sameness of our ultimate path towards oneness.

Ego in this respect is a positive thing and that which yields or results in evolution. In my opinion,
ego is a needed part of personality or no one would ever question anything and would never
grow or change. As example when one specializes in one area (let’s use a doctor); the
specialization can take him far down a path that leads to a level of isolation; an aloneness. That
aloneness (specialization) may yield much for the greater good and also helps evolution yet also
has a counterbalance of isolation in that area of specialization. Can you imagine a world of
egoless individuals that were all identical; we’d be a clone. Even in the world of Spirit I think it
important to possibly follow teachings of others but only adapted to self, otherwise we’d just
become a clone of another. There would be no purpose or value added to existence and I think
that would be less then Spirit intended or at least less than we each could be. Therein, I don’t
thing removing ego is what is needed. I think that which is needed is more appropriately found in
its acceptance and its balance within the greater community being that which is important. I
therefore think I see each of as climbing our own mountain. Each coexisting and interconnecting
to build a whole system based however on uniqueness as opposed to sameness. Therein the
whole, when respectful of each other, gains insight from many, rather than stagnating in
similarities. To me the imbalance comes when respect is lost for each component part. I think our
world today is a perfect example of that imbalance. The resulting question being how do we
return to a state of respect for one another, for differing cultures, the interrelatedness of our local
and world environments, for the universe and even for the diversification in the ways we see or
feel Spirit? The obvious is relatively clear, we need to respect and live with one another in an
environment of love and respect; but the how is very hard?

The how I think must stem from choosing to give back to the community / group
(humanism/interconnectedness)) while retaining uniqueness (independence). In fact the ego of
domination itself maybe that which needs to be expanded to encompass foresight or expanded
view of what is needed for the greater good. Yet I don’t think it is can be a gift until it is well
known. Therein it seems we need to know ourselves well, look past ourselves in openness and
respect for others and continue to expand our worlds universe in love.

I think this may tie into what Jimmy was saying in regards to the timing of the Sun Dance
ceremony and self-sacrifice for community, as well.

Watchituga:
Jimmy, Anyone who believes they are closer to god, would think that others do not recognize the
truth because their own ego is in the way. It's self-justifying. It's absurd. Some Christian,
Muslim, a Buddhist, a Sikh, Hindu, whatever could take the same view about anyone who doesn't
follow their way, that they aren't letting god into their life because of their ego. Simple logic tells
us that they can't all be right. Perhaps this simple logic and being able to see things from
different perspectives is "ego" too. It's so funny. The same kind of one-upmanship tricks are
applied everywhere in support of claims that one way is better than another or to suggest that
someone is more enlightened than others. Perhaps one of the reasons that we have minds (and
egos in the Western psychology sense of the word) is so that we can see through these illusions
easily. Ok, I have ego. Who cares? The only people who do are the ones who obsess over it.
Hang on though - that would have to be ego that drives that obsession. Oops!

Earthwalker:
Wachituga, Just a thought! In the discussion about “ego” I am not sure that the same end is not
being sought here; that end being a fuller or more in-depth understanding of oneself and our
personal relationship to Spirit or universal consciousness. However when discussing the word
ego, it is just possible that we are entering into a semantical quagmire based in personal
perspectives much like the responses invoked by the word “magic”. The word itself is only five
independent letters but sets up a whole range of feelings based on the perspective from which
one approaches it. Bias may need to be taken down but that occurs over time and is individually
based. Ego can yield a quagmire as well based on the perspective from which one approaches.
Personally, I think it is well worth treading softly. To me, it is ego that says I am closer to Spirit
than you or my way is better but it is not ego to say I am closer to Spirit than I was and relate
how I got there. It is not ego to set goals for oneself and sometimes allow teachers to set them
from their broader perspective; that is individual choice.

Personally in any of the above cases, when looking in from the outside, I can learn from
individuals that share their experiences and am thankful for the opportunity to learn. Ego is just
one part of a person's entire personality and simply is. In any interaction we each filter out that
which we don't need while accepting and respecting the source (the person as the sum of all
component parts).

Arctickaiku:
I think this thread is going to drive us all to the brink of insanity, if it hasn't already. It is just that
I had to go to town ... and on my way back, sitting in the bus I saw these 2 old Aboriginal men
lying on the grass underneath a tree. But the curious thing about these 2 men was that they were
not 2 men, but 2 red kangaroos lying there. And the kangaroos looked kind of funny, in their
human form. This provoked another memory. When I was living in Far North Queensland, in the
rain forest there, I knew this Aboriginal Elder ..... and whenever I was in his presence, I also felt
the presence of a Cassowary ( a flightless big bird of that region). At the time I couldn't figure it
out, why I would see these 2 as one....yet see them separately....like shifting back and forth.....
from one image to another. I mean this could totally be me "surfing on my own dementia", but
by golly, this dementia is fascinating ! And this perception hasn't got anything to do with the ego
.... it is just this place. Here in the Central desert the feeling of this kind of "shape-shifting"
among aboriginal people is strong..... it like "pulls you in"... (if that is the right expression). And
I guess, for me personally, to call this "superimposed image" ... "a shadow", gives me a kind of a
tool, to hone my attention on it, so that I could become more aware of it. And yes, I will go and
talk about it with them. Know a couple of people, who are happy to discuss things .... it is just
that with Aboriginal people, this thing, who can talk and about what is a big issue. Which kind of
makes me feel, that I also only have right to speak about personal experiences, or about things
from my own cultural heritage.

CinnamonMoon:
And I was going to keep my mouth shut! But nooooooo I've got an opinion or two to share with
you and you may as well sit down. I'm not dealing with Brevity 101 here. LOL

It occurs to me that "Shadow" itself is a word that is beginning to be a catch phrase for all sorts
of things, and it is also a coined label. I use it myself from time to time, but it is definitely not
"traditional" upon any of the paths I've explored. Following this conversation I think we're going
to have to get used to it though.

IMHO People are trying to find their own way to describe dimensional situations and this is
catching on if you will. Not simply here at Spirit Lodge, but everywhere. There aren't many
places you can go today without someone speaking of the shadow aspect of something and it's
merely the unknowns or challenges presented to them.

When your Guides or Totems are working with you on an open and functional basis they do not
dwell in shadows, they step forward into the light and make their presence known. As they come
forward they may do so slowly stepping out of the shadows or observing you from there for a bit
but they do step out when they think you are ready to handle the face to face part. At that point
they are not playing shadow games with you. But to get there you have to.

I have seen people's Guides superimpose themselves over the individual's faces. I see them
appear in photos too. That's what I would consider a Shadow Image. These Guides are presenting
themselves encased within the aura of a person and it gives a shadowy context at first but they
will clear too. Why? Because our Guides and Totems appear to us from another dimension, be
that superimposed or manifesting into a physical merging with an individual, there is a
dimensional "look" to them. Those new to the experience tend to start looking for a label to put
on it so everyone knows what they are talking about. They are simply energy bodies that we are
seeing and sometimes they appear to waver sometimes they are more solid, I've even seen them
appear like mirages on a hot summer highway.

While I've heard talk of Shadow People for years now, often that term is used to describe beings
who merge dimensionally, or disincarnate spirits....those who have crossed over, ghosts, that
type of thing. I've heard theories of them being glimpses into dimensional realms merging with
the physical reality. I've used the term Shadow Teacher, or Shadow Lesson for a long time and
by that I mean something we're not seeing at the time, usually an experience or individual that
teaches us how *not* to behave, or treat others, what we do not want to be and why does this
happen?

Because we need the experience in a negative way to have compassion for others when we find
ourselves in a similar situation as the one we are learning from. Once learned you see it coming a
mile away, you instantly recognize the energy signature that brings that kind of pain or
discomfort to things. It shadows the reality, makes it murky, muddies the integrity to behave in
those ways and learning by experience it impresses upon us a need to curb it in ourselves. This is
the external version of the internal Great Smoking Mirror...it reflects things back to us...things
we don't like to see, or fear or find distasteful...to gain understanding of what we will or will not
be ourselves.

Here in this thread I believe there have been 1/2 a dozen definitions or more, lots of speculation
and theory, and it's even slipped back into the Ego issue. We need to get used to the term, I've
heard it for the past 10 years or more and there are countless interpretations to go with it still
lingering. Personally I think when we hear someone speak in this way we need to ask them to
define exactly what they are saying and take it from there with our own associations or lack
thereof. Guessing at it and then tearing the guesses apart is serving nothing but to confuse the
issue itself.

Spirits are like us, they have personas and they have intent that determines the integrity of their
actions for good or bad, just like we do, but you do need to get acquainted to know them and
what that intent is. Shadow, dark, unclear, foggy they all imply a less than optimal perspective
don't they? And isn't that what we seek spiritual growth for? To overcome those things in our
nature or to clear our way to answering our questions?

Our Guides and Totems are here to help us benefit from their advice, teachings, and through their
natures they do what they can to see us moving along our paths. It's not a Shadow that's the issue,
it's how we perceive and work with them, how we embrace instead of dissect what they are
telling us. Learning our own symbology, what things mean to us personally, and understanding
the nature of predator/prey with animals as well as humans we see where the shadows (grey
areas) come into play but it's up to us to shine light on those areas to clarify them. Understanding
the essence of the creature itself, it's habits and habitat adds to the knowledge of why they are
making gestures. Understanding the Sacred Directions and where they come from to where they
go tells us more.

These are real spirits we're talking about, not figments of imagination and this thread feels like a
deepening shadow at times obviously creating more confusion than understanding. I think that's
because speculation is moving into the focus rather than definition and that very definition is
something that we each place on the word in our own way. Slide the term into the New Age
category, ask someone to explain what they mean some other way. If they can't then they don't
know what they're talking about through experience but rather in theory only.

It's simple if you want it to be. Human nature is to complicate everything. But until you
understand the simple basics how can you understand the more advanced lessons? You can't. So
until you fully open to the Spirit Helpers working with you there are going to be areas around
them bathed in shadows, shadows of your own making IMHO, because once you do open there
are none, again IMHO...and my experience.

My first Totem came to me as a Shadow-Wolf, she was always in shadow, always watching over
me, but never took on a 3-D form or markings of an actual Wolf. That scared me, I was 5 years
old at the time. It was a few years before she did take form and that was my fear keeping her in
that *shadow* image. She would not break it until I broke through the fear. Now she appears as a
full Wolf, her face as clear as the person sitting next to me, (and she has a cold nose too! LOL)
but in the beginning her features were all shadows. As I opened she got clearer. It's the same
with the lessons and experiences we have with dimensions. We block ourselves with fears of the
unknown and create danger and drama around them. While we should not discount risks and we
should do things carefully, if we do we have nothing to fear at all.

While spiritual experiences are often dramatic, we don't need to create that drama, it's there when
we open to them and find the awe and beauty behind them. This is just my opinion on the matter
based on many years of experiences with these situations and you can take from it what it's worth
to you, but then that was the point of this thread...wasn't it? Ha! And I wasn't going to say any
more about this! LOL Well I'll leave you to munch on it for a while and hope you find some
insight that you can digest. *Grins*

Jimmy WhiteBear:
Nice to see this thread start to straighten out. When I first began reading it, it made absolutely
No Sense!... See what happens when one gets serious!

Arctickaiku:
Thank you Cinnamon for your post.

Quote from it:
"It occurs to me that "Shadow" itself is a word that is beginning to be a catch phrase for all sorts
of things, and it is also a coined label. I use it myself from time to time, but it is definitely not
"traditional" upon any of the paths I've explored"

This I can well believe! I have got a book at home, about my culture, (Finno-Ugric), which had
the bits that I wrote in earlier, but to try and find it in the net, impossible! The only sites (in
addition to the one I pasted an extraction from) ... that I could find that mentions shadow as self
...as soul... are attached here.

Copy & Paste extract from the other:
Shadow spirit (ISI > IZ I or ZI/ZU/IZ)
1)Ugrian *isi =shade, shadow spirit. (stays close to the body)
-Old Hungarian iz =shade, the shadow-spirit (modern szel-em)
-Hungarian zi-hál=heavy breathing [k>h] [iz>zi]
-Ostjak is =shadow-spirit /3pg136
-Vogul is=shadow-spirit/3pg136
definition also, and (is) & soul,shadow (isz)

Altaic ??
-Yukagir ezie,izie =self
FinnUgor *is'e or *ic'e =shadow originally.
-Hungarian isz, iz =old name for desease of cancer
-Hungarian? isz-onyu=terrible
-Hungarian -sz =second person singular verbal suffix (YOU)
-Ostjak ìs =ghost, soul
-Zürjen at's'im=my self
-Zürjen ác'- , ác'im=self
-Finn itse =self
-Estonian ise =self
-Lapp ieš=himself,self
Sumerian as =first,one ???
Sumerian -zu =second person singular suffix (you)

Perhaps the old idea of a shadow/ghost became the ghost/soul of the person which was his
ghostly identity, hence "ALSO" part of him and his "secondary self". The examples of the
second person are not fully expanded here since these are other developments that are best
shown under the heading -you (sz). FinnoUgrists propose that once there was also an
independent Hungarian word for self using the word "is" but have no written proof of it.
In my own language that belongs to this group, the self is ise ... meaning shadow. Isi means
father. Saami word sueje, that means shadow, in my language means a shelter, and there are
many abbreviations of the word meaning guardian, to guard etc. etc. These shadow terms belong
to Saami, Finnish, Karelian, Vepsian, Estonian, Ob-Ugrian Selkup and Nenet etc. cultures.

users.cwnet.com/millenia/SU-I.html
www.uta.fi/~kpjani/ng23.htm

I am no expert in my own culture even, I am just trying to reconnect with it ... find my way back.
If you want to find out more search: "Finno-Ugric and Siberian Shamanism"

CinnamonMoon:
Jimmy, you had me laughing aloud this morning with your: E.G.O. = Ease God Out! And you
triggered me to reply with those *simple* words! Thanks!

Watchituga:
Interesting discussion about terminology. I've always been a heathen. I originally come from a
completely white Anglo-Saxon Pentecostal Christian community (from a long line of similar
white Anglo-Saxon Christians) in a place of heath land and moor land. So coming from heath
land I'm a heathen. I could have some fun with this as a user is in appropriate places. The
concept of Jihad (struggle/striving to live by God's/Allah's law) and Pope Urban the third's holy
war and what this might suggest about Christians in general might be good topics. "Infidel"
(mostly fallen out of use now, but means non-believer in Christianity and Islam) is a good word
to bandy about too.

CinnamonMoon:
Wachituga, Just an observance, and born of lots of experience there, labels always seem to serve
to confuse just as much as they clarify. This isn't about labeling, it's about understanding what
these "shadow" issues are, and stepping out of it, hopefully we can see into it a little better. Spirit
Lodge is not going to embrace getting into religious debates or political issues for fun. I'm afraid
that's for other forums than ours. Here we will demonstrate tolerance, understanding, and
compassion. We gather in Spirit's name at the Lodge and we need to remember that and act
accordingly.

While it may be fun for some to shred things and toy with the mind games of words, we are trying
to grow and serve the greater good of those walking their spiritual paths. If you feel the need to
explore that there is not appropriate forum here. I simply do not see where that serves anyone to
"play" with those issues. We are not in a position to do anything about them, that's in higher
authoritative hands than ours and even there they are up against all sorts of odds. We'll leave
that for the evening news to banter with. This thread was initiated by a serious question and we
need to seriously address it respectfully IMHO.

Nothing personal, just an observation. If I don't bring this up from time to time we end up with a
very confusing thread that is compounded by a lot of external stuff to wade through and people
have precious little time to spend on that as a rule. We have many forums here, and that's a lot of
reading to keep current with things so we ask that the threads stick to the issues as much as
possible. I hope you understand and are comfortable with this. My intent is just to stay on topic
as much as possible while understanding veering away is natural. I'm very good at that myself.

Watchituga:
Cinnamon, I understand. (It wasn't intended as a religious or political statement. I was very
careful to leave all contentious things out of it). There is a serious point, many in fact that go all
the way through the items discussed from misunderstandings over terminology discussed right
through to perceptions and the tolerance (acceptance), understanding and compassion (on the
widest generic scale). There can be no fear either, if it's followed through to eradicating conflict
within.

The mind games with words are there all the time. They are just not always intended or noticed.
The only reason it seemed so obvious was because I made it appear that way, without actually
expressing or implying any opinions at all. It's entirely neutral. I just let you call up your own
associations to fit and create something from it.

Incidentally. I have friends from all those religions and others who work together in common
cause.

(A certain specific person being a prime example of evil -that's a political statement. Sometimes
people come from minority groups in countries and they go through times when their power is
looking under threat, and sometimes they get help from bigger "friends". It's the patterns that
infect people and produce the evil, not the people. Most of the patterns are not even noticed by
people; they are so deeply embedded in the subconscious but perpetuated).

It's general stuff. It's not really about the specific issues. And it's all about shadow issues too,
which are deeply embedded and nested. I will stop there. I hope this isn't considered off-topic.
Feel free to delete it if you think it is.


Arctickaiku:
I am sorry that I couldn't find better references to this, they just do not seem to exist in the
internet. I only found the stuff I wrote to you earlier from my book by "Anna-Leena Siikala",
concerning our "branch" of shamanism. Therein the terms varjosielu=shadowsoul,
varjohaltia=shadowdeity/guardian, and itse=self (the old meaning for this being shadow).
Luontohaltija (Nature deity)in it referred to ancestral forefather clan "totem" animal, the
shaman would call, awake, summon at times. And I really do not know as to why the term
"shadow". I can only guess, or assume, or intuit that it got its beginnings from our highest "God"
The Thunder bird ... as our shamans were initiated by this "Great Grandfather". "When the
soundless sound of thunder rises ... shadow-thunder first, (sensing the energy-field of The
Thunderbird)...lightning second (illumination)"....These are my words, trying to describe the
advent ....Native Americans may have different accounts about The Thunderbird.....and I respect
those. And it is good to stay in one's own tradition. And even that can be confusing. Kind of why
I haven't posted much on other forums ... but stayed in the "Shamanism" forum.

CinnamonMoon:
It's a fair topic Arctic, And one worthy of discussion. I think your tradition uses the term shadow
to mean dimensional overlay. Wachituga, the post is staying. I just wanted to clear the air a bit.

Arctickaiku:
Thank you Cinnamon. That is how I understand it also.

Earthwalker:
Well, I was somewhat confused about this thread and I went back to re read it and figured out I
had missed reading page two. It really does help to read all of the text to follow the thoughts.(S)
Thinking back over the last year and a half, I can’t say the totems or guides ever appeared in
shadow except twice. Once was in teaching about energy and how it dissipates and becomes one
(into shadow) with all. The other time was during my first dance. I still remember dancing and
saw this movement. My thoughts were “Cinnamon says not to be afraid’. I was, but was also
curious so just went with it. Slowly the shadow walk into my living room and became visible. It
was a black Jaguar. My thoughts were OMG, I’m out of here, but? But, I told him he could stay
but not move any closer and I kept watching. He was magnificent. His coat was a shining black
with spots and he had the most intense green eyes; we both became calmer as I danced. He then
brought in many white spirits which danced as well. Thinking back if he had approached
abruptly, never would I have returned. Therein I think the shadows have purpose but only to
enable the communication to be enhanced. The black Jaguars have stayed and helped me moved
from fear of the unknown dimensions into acceptance of them; albeit still with incomplete
understanding. The guides / totems and animals are absolutely beautiful and I find the details are
enhanced particularly in the underworld and the transparency I think is dependent upon the
dimensional range (vibrational frequency) being observed even in the mundane. Often you can
look into the depths of their eyes and see emotion; the emotions of exploration, caution, joy,
peace and love etc.

Going further though when in other dimensions I sometimes do feel shadows of others entities
around me and sometimes they seem to be watching but since they don't appear I just feel that I
am passing through a dimension but I am not to learn from these entities at least at this time. The
guides and totems from which we are to learn are always clear. I think as many of you have said
letting go of fear is a key.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
Creator has given us gifts to help others heal and to abuse those gifts by claiming to have
"powers" is nothing less than EGO "The great I am!"... If the gift is truly given, it can be lost or
taken away because of abuse.

Many of us are in the helping professions or human services and in the truer meaning of
"Healer" are exactly that but, even those Doctors with an "Holier than thou'" attitude end up
paying dearly for mistakes. Therapists, counselors/clinicians that abuse their gifts end up sicker
than the ones they are trying to help. Ego gets in the way and the "I, the self, the me" is the
important thing and the client ends up on the sh** end of the stick.

We as healers must always give thanks to the creator for what is accomplished because he/she is
the one that really does the work, we just become the vessel or hollow bone through which
Creator does his/her work. I used the word "Oogsigamu" earlier in the posting and it was the
wrong word. "Oogsigamu'" Means "What part of Mother Earth do you belong to?" "cheech-ga
amij" is the word for "Spirit or shadow" and the spirit takes his orders (so to speak) right from
Creator. Then the spirit tells us what we need to do.

Thinking we are better than others because we are healers or better at something then others is a
clear example of abuse and Spirit will teach you the lessons you need to learn because of that.
To take credit for a gift received from Creator is Ego, We have "Eased God Out" of our lives and
taken credit for his work. insisted that we have the power.

Remember the movie that just came out with Jim Carrie when he gets God’s Power, he is
walking down the street and up goes this girls dress, a fire hydrant goes off and the music they
play is what? "I got the Power!" and God’s lesson for him was what? Humility!... The humble
heart will never leave god out of their lives... The humble heart will always give credit where
credit is due!... To Creator!...

CinnamonMoon:
Well spoken, Jimmy! I hope you don't feel that I was laughing at your words of "Ease God Out".
What tickled me was the simplicity of the truth in them. Those who walk in Ego's countenance
stand out in a harsh way, abrasive, intrusive, dominating, arrogant. To believe we hold that
Power aside from Spirit is pure EGO. I couldn't agree with you more. It seems Ego pops in on
everything to distract from the teachings taking place, but then that's what Ego does, eh? It draws
from the truth by screaming for attention. When we walk with Spirit that's where our attention
goes and we know the source of that Power and we know we can only tap into it, not own it, so
we are humbled and thankful...and we know what it is to be blessed.

NorthernStar:
Thank you Bear. If a heart is connected with Creator, if a heart is lying in the hands of Creator -
then the heart has no other way but to behave in the sense of Creator. There is no longer a
difference between "I" and Creator... If the heart is underlying the will of EGO - if there still is a
difference between "I" and Creator - then the credit might go to EGO... And EGO will be soooo
proud of it... EGO needs the food of energy of others to see it... (...also of "me"... :-)) It is so very
dependent on others... What a job to feed EGO day after day... Thank you Bear for your words...

Arctickaiku:
Bear. It is very interesting that you also DO have the word shadow in context with spirit in your
culture. Very interesting indeed..... in the sense that it isn't some new definition you just
invented, or "coined up"....but comes from way back ...

Earthwalker:
Arctic, Thank you for your kind words; in reality though I struggle to find the words to share the
beauty I have been permitted to see and feel. If ever there was fear, Spirit has removed that and
for that I am thankful .

Watchituga:
Thanks Jimmy, I've seen and heard the same things before many times. It's exactly the same
ideas that the missionaries had used in Africa when I was three years old to convert people.
("ego" wasn't used then, but there were equivalent words; "ego" has only cropped up since).
That's the time when it became absolutely clear that I was not to favor any one existing path. To
me it is divisive. (I am always to go the other way, to connect people and groups up, irrespective
of beliefs or background, without any claim of authority, to know and to treat each as an equal.
The words must speak for themselves.) This means that it's time for me to go now. Thanks to
everyone else here too, for your insights along the way.

Earthwalker:
Wachituga and Jimmy, “Ego can yield a quagmire as well based on the perspective from which
one approaches.”

Please try the same arguments using a different word or clearly defining ego leaving emotion
out. The perspectives from which you are coming from are different. In my opinion it is better to
grow in understanding or at least respect; walking away serves no purpose. Both points of view
are valid based on your own personal perspectives or approach.

To me some individuals serve Spirit in one way, others in a different manner. No one way is
better than another just different; yet respect in this context must be for all paths not just those
we agree with.

It seems to me Wachituga that you are defining ego simply as appropriate self-esteem whereas
Jimmy you are defining ego as an inflated sense of self. Please correct me if I am wrong. Those
definitions clearly define your approach which are very polar opposite. I am not sure that your
paths are that different in intent if the approach wasn't so opposite. Try eliminating the bias of
approach and you may be surprised to find extreme similarities in intent. Besides that you are
both stubborn (IMHO)!

Arctickaiku:
Yes Eartwalker ...When you write your stories, you must be visualizing (reliving) them at the
same time.... ? Because your words have an "echo-quality" to them, that works for me like a
doorway into visualization also ..... i.e. I start "echoing" your words and images ..."tasting" them
somewhere in the "open ended emptiness of my mind" ...

And having just visualized & "echoed" your black Jaguar .... I went to another site on the net to
look for some other stuff &.what is the first picture I see ! A black Jaguar ! Shiny with spots and
all ! As though "echoing-into-emptiness" produced an echo back. And even though it wasn't your
OMG experience .... nothing like that at all, nevertheless it was like a distant echo of it. Was it
the "power of your words", or the power of my mind to echo your words or what ....that caused
the coincidence, (coincidences that we all have) .... I think that the question about "who's power"
just becomes totally irrelevant at this point. I feel that the word "echo" is one of those
"dimensional words" also.

P.S.
Went to town & talked to this Aboriginal man I know. Told him about the "superimposed image"
of the red kangaroos on these 2 old Aboriginal men, that I saw. He seemed to know what I was
talking about from the word go, and said: " Yep, yep, that's their Dreaming ! That's the form their
spirit travels, when it leaves the body". I would have liked to have asked more, but didn't want to
make a big issue out of it. That is one thing I love about Aboriginal people, that they treat this
stuff as totally ordinary, common place.

NorthernStar:
“I've seen and heard the same things before many times. It's exactly the same ideas that the
missionaries had used in Africa when I was three years old to convert people.”
It may seem the same, it may look the same, it may sound the same, it may smell the same, it may
feel the same - but it is not the same. Bear is Bear and the missionaries are the missionaries.
Wachituga, it seems that Bears words did wake up old experiences you made. But the one to
awake things is not the one you experienced the things with. Possibilities to go deeper might pass
away "simplifying" things this way. There might be a reason that this came up for you again -
may be to work with it on a different level now than with the age of three... Just a thought that
came up and meant in a very friendly way...

I learned to give those who bring us to new points on our way - even if these points are not
comfortable for us in the following learning process - well, to give these people a medicine gift,
if it is appropriate. This in mind I try to look at situations that hold a "trigger" for me in a
different way: it might be that they hold good medicine for me. And if appropriate I give the
people who really worked with me this way (in giving this "trigger") a medicine gift. It is just
another thought, too. It may help to see situations, that really "touch" us, in a different way.

Earthwalker:
Wachituga and Jimmy, I woke up this morning frustrated. Frustrated by the fact that two of my
favorite writers and very opinionated individuals here at Spirit lodge seem to be unable to
tolerate one another; I asked myself why?

When I look at Jimmy, I see a strong individual that helps people overcome devastating illnesses
through individually understanding themselves better and giving up control to a greater power in
order to heal. Jimmy heals by being a hollow bone and allowing Spirit to heal. The healed
individual gains respect (of self).

When I look at Wachituga, I see a strong individual that helps disparate groups of individuals
come together in understanding and therein give up isolation of self / group; yielding in turn to
greater understanding and respect. Wachituga heals by becoming part of universal energy and
allowing that energy to encompass all individuals in understanding and in healing. The healed
individuals or group gains respect (of one another).

What I also see are two individuals that know the ways to help others heal but are so very
specialized in their own methods that they cannot see past their individuals specialized field to
either the larger human condition in Jimmy’s case or into the individuals depths pf pain that can
encompass individuals in Wachituga’s case. There are many types of work that must be done to
bring about either the understanding of / or being with Spirit / universal consciousness. If you
could both just step back from your own perspectives and your own chosen paths you might just
see the beauty that you each individually bring to the world, each in your own way and each
helping others to heal albeit in completely opposite manners. Personally, I believe that both of
your perspectives are valuable and I would hate to see either of you to choose not to write. By
sharing your paths you help others that come from many different cultures and perspectives with
their own individual’s needs. It takes a community to raise a child not only one individual
perspective and it is through seeing and respecting how others have found their way that we can
help others together, find their own way.

I ask that the discussion about paths continue in respectful disagreement. With all of our human
limitation wouldn’t it be far better to respectfully agree to disagree, then it would be to walk
away from the discussion. No one should force their path on another, no on should say my way is
the only way; albeit it, it might be the only way for the individual. In my mind that choice needs
to be respected as well. I believe, in both cases when the personal path must dominate another
that is when EGO is speaking. Wouldn't it be far better to look instead at the beauty and diversity
of our home and planet, Mother Earth, and learn and live by her example in respect. Each
element (Air, Water, Fire and Earth) has its own way but in their individuality they work
together both separately and in complementation. They too, at times, come together in chaos at
the interfaces but that chaos is good and cleansing; albeit more deeply appreciated after the storm
has passed not necessarily during it. I will also grant you the fact that a thunderstorm is
magnificent to watch but one might not necessarily relish being a part of it.

I for one feel we need all perspectives here and after the heat of the discussion has simmered
down I hope you both choose to continue to post. Personally I value both of your insights as I try
to find my own way. Thank you both for what you have shared and the help you have given me.
I do hope though that you both choose to continue to post.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
LOL, No Cinn, Didn't think that for a minute. Hoped i had challenged some to stop and think
about what they were writing. Thank you everyone!

Morning EarthWalker, I do not hold any Ill feelings for anyone in here and although I work with
people individually, I also work communal!... Anyone that works in the healing fields be it
medical or psychiatric indeed needs to take an eclectic approach both on an individual bases
and communal. With so many cultures in the world and all of them mixing in this day and age,
we all have the opportunity to learn healing techniques from all of them. With the invention of
the Computer and the internet, healers from all over the world can communicate with each other
and passionately disagree with each other or agree. But when all the disagreements are said and
done, there is only one way, Creators!...It is never about "right or wrong" it is always about
difference of opinion! I have to listen and listen closely to people on a daily bases, I need to
process what I perceive through my own world view and understand that there are many
cultures, societies, tribes, clans, and individuals all having their own worldview and they're own
ways of perceiving the information that is presented. After processing what has been given, We
all interpet what the spirit bear says differently but most of us, through our worldviews,
understand that Spirit bear's message is about healing. How we heal is the difference!...Agree to
disagree? Anytime and anywhere! But without respect and consideration for each other, it is
nothing less than EGO!... and respect and consideration must always be up front...

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
“Each element (Air, Water, Fire and Earth) has its own way but in their individuality they work
together both separately and in complementation.”

Well said Earthwalker (all of it, but that was my favorite part)
“…and respect and consideration must always be up front...”

This is how I've chose to behave, think and live personally. So for my part, I agree. Something
else that comes to mind in discussions like these is a Zen story:

“A professor once visited a Zen master, asking many questions about enlightenment and the
meaning of life. While the professor went on and on in his intellectual, scattered, convoluted and
pedantic way, the Zen master made and served tea. He filled the professor's cup, and tranquilly
continued to pour. The professor finally noticed the overflow. "Stop!" he cried, alarmed. "The
cup is full! There's no room for more!"…."Exactly," said the Zen master, putting down the pot.
"Just like this cup, you are so full of your own views and opinions that there is no room for new
understanding."

Sometimes the difficulty isn't that there's disagreement, it's that there isn't room for others
understandings. That's what respect and consideration create, more room. Just what came to
mind in my pre-coffee brain. It's not pointed at anyone, only offered for consideration.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
But, As I said before, Shadow and spirit are one in the same. Many native words from all native
cultures have more than one meaning and it simply depends on the enunciation of the word.
LOL, Thank you SEDD, Well Said!.

Maftet:
I just thought I should wave a hand and say I am here. Since I started this post I figured I should
admit I'm reading all the replies, but don't have anything worth adding. I asked my question and
got my answer and I thank everyone for that. Some great stuff has come along since then on this
thread that had absolutely nothing to do with my original question, which has been amazing to
watch and read. Very interesting!

NorthernStar:
This is a post meant in a very friendly way... From my own experiences please let me add that the
decisions each one makes are to honor. Whether one wants to stay or whether one wants to go.
Everyone is on his/her way and someone may need the time to work with different people, with
different topics or may be in silence. Sometimes the things that come up are very intense and may
be we need some time for us on our own. Sometimes there are different people needed to help us
to go on... Or.. Or.. Or...

(I experienced this on my own. I stepped back for about two years form the work with one of my
teachers. It was a sad and hard but also a beautiful time. It simply was needed - though it was so
very, very, hard at first. But it really was needed. There were steps that needed to be done - and I
needed the room. And after a while when things were experienced I was so happy that we could
work again together after we both went through certain steps we had to go. Even if there had
been some really intense "learning points" before... *smile*)

I want to honor each step anyone makes to grow and to learn. Sometimes these steps are not
easy and it may take some energy to do them. Sometimes we may not understand the steps of the
other person. But as long as it feels well for the other one then it may be okay.

May be we all will meet again here together in a circle - one never knows... May be people who
feel that they need time on their own might want to join again after some time again. As I said - I
experienced this on my own - and from my side I want to add that I felt very happy that a place
was there for me to come back and to walk together with the others again - though in a different
position, then. It was a time of learning - and it was needed. And it was a good time, too. May
Beauty guide our ways wherever we go...

CinnamonMoon:
Arctic, You made a comment to Earthwalker that I wanted to address. If you care to discuss this
further we can in a new thread but just to give you something to munch on in your own words...
“When you write your stories, you must be visualizing (reliving) them at the same time.... ?
Because your words have an "echo-quality" to them, that works for me like a doorway into
visualization also ..... i.e. I start "echoing" your words and images ..."tasting" them somewhere in
the "open ended emptiness of my mind" ... “

This is common for someone who is opening to the dimensional work with others. Being drawn
into the journey as such is a preview of how you can meet in sacred space together. I've always
journeyed with people like this, stepping into their past to see what they experienced. Shamanic
practices often call for this type of work be it in teaching others, soul retrievals, healing and
getting to the source of the dis-ease, etc. So you may well have an emerging ability that you
could work with further and pay some serious attention to. I just felt I should point that out to
you.

Earthwalker:
Arctic and Cinnamon, I would love to discuss the subject of the "echos" Arctic is seeing and
journeying with others further as Cinnamon suggested. Arctic, to answer your question, yes
when I write about journeys / dances I can relive what I have seen and felt and they are great
starting places to journey further. The Black Jaguar(s) are very special to me and stayed with me
continually for several months after my first encounter. I can now just feel their presence with or
without visualization. If you can go back into the journey/echo see if you can see the one you
saw. Can you also see both of them. Look into their eyes and tell me what you see. What are the
distinguishing characteristics can you observe between the two. They are magnificent creatures
to observe, and as I write they sit near. Can you see the other entity that sits behind me? I am
just curious?

Cinnamon, What are the ground rules for this type of journeying. Is mixing journeys with others
safe? I do find this "echo" very interesting.

CinnamonMoon:
Earthwalker, I will start a new thread about this. I don't want to stray from this one and shifting
subjects can be so confusing if someone wanted to reference the material later.

Earthwalker:
Some see Spirit as a guiding force, some see Spirit as a controller and that which controls all,
some see Spirit as pure energy, some see Spirit outside and different from ourselves, some see
Spirit as encompassing all that is and some see Spirit as an organizer. The permutations of
interpretation are as numerous as can be imagined and just maybe (and to me, not that I am
biased at all (Smile) Spirit is represented by all the diversity in existence and then some. In
acceptance and respect for all, there is where we just might find and be one with Spirit. To me
Spirit does not control, does not demand but is pure love and is represented by the diversity and
beauty of all that is. I feel Spirit is pure energy and visually reflected in the beauty of Mother
Earth, the Universe and Cosmos and all life forms. That definition may be different than others
and that is ok and probably good since Spirit I believe is manifested in the very diversity that we
find so hard at times to accept. We each speak of Creator, Spirit, Universal Consciousness,
Energy, Organizer, Light, Love, God, etc based on our own definitions and beliefs. Aren’t these
interpretive differences that which are creating confusion and / or misunderstanding. While we
all carry a personal bias, can’t we find common ground and see the beauty of Spirit in all of the
various forms expressed and respect those forms even though they differ from ours.

The following quotes have been expressed in this thread:
“The mind games with words are there all the time. They are just not always intended or noticed.
The only reason it seemed so obvious was because I made it appear that way, without actually
expressing or implying any opinions at all. It's entirely neutral. I just let you call up your own
associations to fit and create something from it.”

“The same kind of one-upmanship tricks are applied everywhere in support of claims that one
way is better than another or to suggest that someone is more enlightened than others.”
“Hoped I had challenged some to stop and think about what they were writing.”

I ask that as these quotes are re-read that only the words without what was being intended be
read. Then think about them from another’s perspective. To me there is a great deal of similarity
of style in these three quotes. From them I would suspect that the individuals writing them are in
fields where they help others think outside of the box. They are teachers / healers! However, I
personally think the above are representative of important tools which are used appropriately in
a more controlled setting where everyone knows and has agreed that they are to be taught. I do
wonder about the appropriateness of this type of technique in this type of forum. I wonder if
these types of techniques are preferable to having someone say what they feel or point things out
so that a clearer understanding of the perspective is presented. Are these techniques preferable
to sharing ones feelings or experiences? These types of techniques can be fun for all involved
but! If individuals as a result feel they are being played with or being laughed at all
communication is lost and more harm than good is done. I personally feel that in this thread
somehow the techniques used to teach with good intent resulted in the opposite of what was
intended.

I think Jimmy stated the better technique in his words “respect and consideration must always be
up front”. Thanks, Jimmy.

Arctickaiku:
Thank you again Cinnamon. This is however where I must take my leave from this forum board
... for now. To Honor the "lone dingo" path appointed & follow my nose ... The reason why I
came here to Central Australian desert is starting to unfold ... and Spirit seems to be pointing out
those "superimposed images" on the native peoples that are animals .... their Dreaming, - as
something that has great significance for me also, which I need to explore.

P.S. Maftet, keep these bright ideas for threads coming !

P.S.S. Earthwalker, Oh Dear ..... I had just composed the above post, and now Earhwalker you
ask me more questions ! No, it was just as I mentioned before ...that I was "echoing" your
imagery & words in the "open ended emptiness of my mind" .... that also for me is an openended-question
for Spirit to answer....as to the validity of & insights into the expressed. And then
I went back to the net, and first site/picture that I saw was of a black Jaguar. This coincidence
gave me the assurance of your story as being valid, real. And I looked at the picture & the coat
was shiny .... spots too ! This coincidence also gave me the feeling of the Sacred Space
Cinnamon mentioned, a meeting place ... I felt that I was having "a moment in that dimensional
space"..... (And with it I "read" a private message from Spirit to me, also in the message
suggestion that you too have a "superimposed image" of the animal kind.) .But the eyes were
whitish, thought it was my screen .... And then I wondered about the eyes... what kind of a look
would that be. Then was it yesterday .... I was in my living room, TV was on, I wasn't even
watching it....but something made me look ... (and it was a stupid skin cream add) ... the
commentator said "love the skin you are in" ... and the woman in the add had the most piercing
green eyes that looked directly at me, as though I had been "put on notice", (if that is the right
expression) ....these green eyes saw right through me ... in that dimensional way.....where
nothing can be hidden, and I thought: "Oh, those were T-h-e green eyes". Curious thing is
though, that when I sense people's energy, those who are into Shamanism, I often mix sexes,
whom I think is a woman is a man etc. I think this refers to having both male & female sides to
that person. I've composed this in a haste .... hope this answers some parts of your question,
Earthwalker. But Oh, how I would have loved to have seen you dance !

NorthernStar:
Oh, Arctic - how beautiful your way unfolds. And I also will be honest: I will miss you. But this is
a selfish aspect - and what shines above all is joy about your way... I want to add that with your
last post with a special aspect you also helped me a lot to accept what I am also going through at
this moment (besides other things.... hehehe...). It is the same with me with the sexes . And I also
experience that myself in my own body and being. Though born a woman, though having been
married for about 13 years, though liking women’s style and clothes and above all so much the
feminine way of being, it is not as "clear" as it "might be" for others "who I am". I feel "like
being all" - it is not a real switching but at the same time being this and also being that. It was
like that since I can remember. (This is not meant as a transgender discussion, it is meant here
for the inner feeling and being...) (I know this sounds somehow not really appropriate - but I am
looking for the words how to describe it...). Arctic - with your last post you helped me so much to
look at this again. May Beauty be with you wherever you go. May your way unfold with Beauty...

Arctic - thank you so much again. I know exactly what you mean. I have had the same feeling
since small and so has my husband. It's not a transgender thing. For my husband he still
remembers past lives of both genders very strongly so for him the whole male/female thing was
never an issue on the level of spirit. It's not easy to explain in words though.

Earthwalker:
Arctic, Northern and Maftet have expressed my feelings, you will be missed. I am sorry about
the questions I wasn't actually looking for validation I was trying to provide them to you and was
just curious about what you were seeing not questioning if you were. I hope you stop back as you
can.

For me the green eyes of the Black Jaguar have the depth of the universe contained within.
Journey far, he represents to me the wanderer. As I look into his eyes I see the circling plains of
gases moving in circular motion. almost like plains of galaxies being created. The Black Jaguar
with the yellow green eyes is the one I find that can look within and know all; she is more of a
protector and more stealthy and reserved in appearance. She is the one that demonstrates the
dissipation of energy and i often follower her by her eyes but when those are closed see is no
longer observed but then I can only feel her; she has been a teacher.

As for the white eyes, I am not sure what you are seeing but sitting behind me last night was the
white Snow Leopard. His eye are white / light gray and he makes his presence known by
catching his claws in my hair. He is elusive and intense but also soft and cuddly. His fur is long
unlike the black cats and the size of his paws are what I always notice,. They feel immense and
expand at least two third the width of the back of my head. I also often see whitish eyes and
complexion on Spirit Walkers. I think it maybe dimensionally related since I see the same Spirit
Walker in different intensities and more or less defined color in different places. I find the lower
world typically of a higher vibration and therein yields minute details; whereas, the upper world
appears often more diffuse with a lessening of the intensity of color but also often more
crystalline in appearance; yet not always. Therein my understanding is still very in complete.
Thank you for helping me to understand more.

NorthernStar:
Maftet, thank you to you and your husband... So much help here... I feel so happy that this
information and sharing came right now - it helps me so very much... Thank you all!

Jimmy WhiteBear:
May Grandfather sun warm your face and the gentle winds be at your back...

Arctickaiku:
Thank You ! Please do not post to me after this for I am already way too attached to You, both
emotionally and energetically. Yes, NorthernStarDeer, I think that the part of us that relates to
Spirit, goes beyond gender.

Earthwalker, I wasn't bothered about your questioning, I was laughing about it. And as I said, I
didn't have your OMG experience, just a distant echo of it, that showed me that it vas valid and
that it resonated in that "dimensional space". Distant echoes are like ripples to a distant shore,
once you get the first ripple/wave, then you can focus your intent on it ..and start "tracking" for
the next ripple/echo all the way to the center of original experience .... if this makes sense.
Right now, here in Alice, I have discovered that the wolf, that I had seen watching me for 2 1/2
years, isn't external, but internal .... the Dingo showed me that. And it isn't enough to read in the
book, that my ancestors saw themselves as descendants of various animals .... I have to
personally "track this ripple/echo back to its center", to come to a full realization of what this
means. Some people can do many tracks at the same time, I can't ...

And Bear....I was trying to send You all an astral message & I couldn't think of a lovelier image
than "Willows Heart" is. Just visualizing a gentle breeze through the willow and f-e-e-l-i-n-g
how benevolent and gentle the willow tree's aura is. By sensing the aura of the tree, one feels the
heart of the tree. Then I added the message, extremely simple one, an image of the sun from the
Aboriginal flag. You Bear brought that "echo" back to me....gentle wind, sun. Anthropologists
say that Siberians and Native Americans are related, way back. Some Native Americans totally
deny this, some embrace it. My feeling is that we are more related than we realize sometimes.

WolfSpirit:
Hey all, I am very late to this thread - but it has totally confused me! I have heard the term
"shadow teacher" talked about on these boards in relation to people i have come across in my life
who have not acted in the Highest Good. I understand by this term that they were a part of my
life top teach me how not to "Be". In this respect, is a "shadow" not a part of us that is not
coming from light that needs to turn to the light? Hence, come out of the "shadows"?

I would ask Maftet if this is what she really meant when she asked her original question - was
she really asking about something that is sent to us to show us an aspect of ourselves (or another
perhaps) that needs to change?

The term Shadow Totem may not be one used in a particular culture or may not even be correct
usage, but surely there is an understanding of the inference of the term "shadow" in the sense that
Maftet asked it? Could a totem that comes to show us a shadow aspect of ourselves not be
described whether rightly or wrongly as a shadow totem?

If so, then after the first page, i feel that Maftet's question has gotten lost in a whole lot of stuff
about the intricacies of particular cultures rather than being answered in the spiritual context
Maftet asked? Someone (think it was Wachituga) pointed out earlier in this thread that the world
is getting smaller.....

In this context should we not be asking questions rather than simply assuming and going off
course and ending up not answering the question asked? To see people arguing over what a term
means in a particular culture rather than exploring the term saddens me. Just a latecomer's
observation!

Maftet:
Hi Wolf, Thanks for the thoughts. This actually started for after I had an ongoing run of bad
dreams where animals kept attacking me. I was browsing through websites dealing with animal
totem symbolism looking for each specific animal when I found one website that mentioned this
idea of "shadow totems." It seemed an idea that didn't fit, yet some of the information was
interesting in that what they said the animals symbolized did fit my situation. So I was left feeling
unsatisfied. That's when I asked the question here. In the end Cinnamon answered my question
elsewhere in a discussion on animals in dreams attacking meaning they're trying to get your
attention. When I took that line of thought and went back and looked at the same animals their
totem symbolism STILL fitted. So I think the shadow idea is a concept that could be worked on. I
don't think there are "shadow totems", but I suspect totems show us aspects of ourselves we're
not willing to acknowledge at times - hence things that are "shadowy" in a way. Anyway, after
my chat with Cinnamon I was happy and so didn't need any more answers. This thread moved
and evolved into something new and I was busy and lost track. I came here the other day and
thought "Wow!" when I saw how long it had become. And I felt guilty for not reading as much of
it as I could have. Some of the discussions have whoooshed over my head here - hence the lack of
comments. I know enough to know when I'm out of my depth. Been interesting though.

CinnamonMoon:
I do hope you come back to read this because I am concerned you felt that we might be putting
little merit to your views about Ego and that's not the case. It's just that IMHO, when a spiritual
path is developing in a healthy way, the issue of Ego becomes neutralized and fades over time.
I've taught spirituality for decades now and I know that as people enter into the *mystical and
magical* aspects of it there is usually some desire for control in their life. They are looking for a
way to make things change or happen and in the process, as the foundations are taught, respect
for these cornerstones leads to respect for the lessons learned and the growth that is being sought
and found. At that point attitudes begin to change, the Ego starts to be brought under control, and
the confidence gained is humble in comparison. This is my personal experience, and in rare cases
where this does not manifest and the Ego rules, I simply point that out and stop further sharing
unless the person is willing to work on that. In most cases when that happens they lose interest
and fall away on their own anyhow.

So, for me, when I run into the Ego as such taking a less confrontational approach works. That's
why when Jimmy spoke of EGO = Ease God Out I had to chuckle for that's exactly what I've
found it does. On the flip side, when you ease Spirit into your life the Ego begins to fade and
soon is all but lost. We weren't ignoring your comments, nor were they seen as worthless. I do
hope that you will return to us and not feel we were pushing you away. It's just that aggression
seems to feed egos and make them want to fight and so by not building on that we can make
progress. Again, just MHO and I hope you'll stick around.

Earthwalker:
Last night with work, SL and home in various states of conflict I took the night off and fell asleep
with the grandfather (Stalking Wolf), reading the “Grandfather” by Tom Brown JR. I do like his
books when I just want to become one with a story. I always find my self-relaxed and more open
after a being in nature either in the physical or in mind. Still I woke up thinking about this thread
and questioning “what am I missing to understand or see” ? There is diversity, there is conflict,
there are feelings of confusion and there are feelings of not being in the same league; none of
which were intended by this thread. I questioned why?? I thought hard and asked for a meaning
and I think I did find an understanding. Before sharing it though, I would like to thank Sprit
Lodge and all of its members in general for their patience with this thread. In particular, I would
like to thank Maftet for the question about shadows, Arctic and Cinnamon for the discussion
about echoes, and Wachituga and Jimmy for their discussion on ego, the way they each define
Spirit and the their juxtaposition of interpretation. I would also like to thank Wolf Spirit for
indicating frustration with the wandering, and Northern Star, SED and Cinnamon for keeping a
lid on all of this and a positive light on things. I do hope and pray that Wachituga hasn’t
permanently left the forum since I would never have understood without his perspective as well;
but I also respect choice if truly it is choice. Wachituga, I am truly sorry if you were somehow
hurt in this lesson but thank you for being part of it. Your mind games finally had an impact on
me. Most of all I would like to thank Spirit for weaving this entanglement from which I could
finally find an answer. Somewhere in the balance of diversification and contrast with many views
coalescing into one is the place that I finally “see”; at least a little more. I can see Wisowl
shaking her head and laughing and Cinnamon saying it really is in simplicity. Nevertheless, I
will “try” to explain.

Many have indicated how this thread has wandered; on the surface I agree but then again I
wonder? The question was about the term “shadow”, and evolved into seemingly second and
third threads about “ego” and “echo” respectively. Yet, I somehow think this thread was guided
to encompass more than that evident on its surface. If we delve just a little deeper, there are
similarities in the outwardly appearing incongruent threads. If we think about shadow, ego and
echo the question begs to be asked what is congruent or similar between the three words. Why /
how are these interconnected? When thinking about the individual words I try to mentally see
them. To me,:

Shadow is a product that exists only in the presence of light and dark. Shadow cannot be
observed if there is no light. Light cannot be seen if there is no contrasting darkness. Shadow
therefore is not in substance a thing; it is a balance. It is a process, since it is only within the
contrast that it can be seen. In other words, an observed resultant born from a process.

Ego exists only in the presence of judgment and / or absence thereof. Ego cannot exist without
judgment. In the absence of judgment, ego simply diffuses into nothingness since it cannot be
fueled; it is just there. In the presence of judgment ego can become. It is therefore only within the
contrast that ego is defined; therein ego too is not a thing but a process and born therein.
Echo likewise exists only in the presence of sound / vision and a reflective substance(s). Echo
(whether vision or sound) cannot occur in the absence of a reflective substance nor can it occur
without sound or vision. It is within the reflecting of sound / sight waves (the contrast) that an
echo can exist. While defined as a noun, in reality it is actually a verb; it is an action, a process.
Over an over within this thread, the same things are shown and they all depict a process of
balance, born from or a resultant of contrast. Each term in fact is a center, resulting from the
balance between two. A shadow, an ego, an echo cannot exist without the two component parts
being present and therein in reality each is more of a process than a thing. I am therefore left
with thoughts broader in perspective.

The Medicine Wheel is depicted as a noun or a thing but it to in reality is a process. In a dance
we center in balance and move outwardly in expanding circles each possibly pushing the edge
outward to greater and greater view or extremes. The contrast becomes larger between the
extreme opposite positions if determined by distance. Yet the dance encompasses all. As we
expand outwardly grasping more and pull back to center it is the process of growth, of evolution
of or as Cinnamon always says “of becoming”. Yet it is within the contrast, that the process of
becoming is found; it is in the balancing that we become centered and therein grow or evolve. It
is in the process of moving up and down that we assimilate the past, look to the future and
through this process, the process of creation occurs or begins in the Now (center). At the
individual level it may be the creation of a thought, an idea, but I just wonder if the Medicine
Wheel is not really reflective of more than just an individual’s process of living and growing but
more of a visual representation of Creator / Spirit itself.

Out of the context of the beauty of Jimmy’s words “when all the disagreements are said and
done, there is only one way, Creators” and also Wachituga world perspective “to connect
people and groups up, irrespective of beliefs or background, without any claim of authority, to
know and to treat each as an equal. The words must speak for themselves”, contrast are seen;.
Yet, the contrast between the two is where the balanced center is found and creation occurs.
Without the contrast we would never see. So yes I agree with Jimmy, Spirit is all that is, a
Creator. But yet I equally agree with Wachituga that all are equal, a dynamic process
encompassing all. So I am left with Spirit, to Earthwalker’s mind, being defined as a thriving
dynamic process of evolution (creation). Within this context, we are each also part of the
contrast; co-creators / hollow bones and part of this Process of Spirit yet recognized or labeled
each in our own way as Spirit, Creator or Universal Consciousness etc..

To me, the Native Americans have intensely beautiful ways of defining in story or working
models such as the Medicine Wheel the process of living at one with the Spirit (a process of
creation in and of itself). Yet this thread further enhanced my understanding of the process
depicted by the Medicine Wheel or Spirit itself. I am thankful for the insight and being exposed to
the beauty of the medicine wheel since it truly is a process to understanding. I am also thankful
to each of you since it was within the contrasts and diversity created in this thread that the
process (Spirit, Creator, Universal Consciousness etc.) was more thoroughly understood/
defined in all of its beauty. I think I am starting to understand what is truly meant by the Beauty
Way.
CinnamonMoon:
“…but I just wonder if the Medicine Wheel is not really reflective of more than just an
individual’s process of living and growing but more of a visual representation of Creator / Spirit
itself.”
Absolutely!

“I think I am starting to understand what is truly meant by the Beauty Way.”
I couldn't agree with you more and you expressed this all so beautifully!!

WolfSpirit:
Re: Wachituga: “My feeling is that we are more related than we realize sometimes.”
Couldn't agree more Arktic! Are we not all Spiritually related? Spirit surely does not love one
more because he comes from one culture or another, nor for the label he chooses for himself or
the spiritual practices he chooses, nor does knowledge of Spirit come to that person as of right
just because of that label or those practices. Whether we like it or not, the World is getting
smaller, and this may challenge our perceptions of who we are, who is our brother and the Way
they choose or what they call it. Surely the important thing is to learn to come to Spirit, not to a
way of living! Wachituga, I hope you continue to let your light shine with us!

Earthwalker, our posts must have crossed...i really liked your post! It does give us a perspective
on why the thread meandered. The point that saddened me was that people were challenging
other's right to "Be" instead of collectively finding the answer to the original question. However
your post does bring up an important issue which is what i was trying to say in my last post - a
shadow lesson in itself - about judgements - Creator surely does not judge, so who has the right
on earth to do so? I can't help agreeing with Wachituga, the "process" you describe cannot
begin until divisiveness is dropped.

Earthwalker:
Wolf, I think you are being optimistic. To me divisiveness like discrimination is a resultant of
fear; fear of the unknown or past. Fear ends through observing examples, through exposure to
the unknown and through discussion. It leaves slowly over time as new and better models fill in
the void as fear slowly leaves. It takes time. Just look at what it took for me to overcome my bias
towards "magic". If Cinnamon had indicated I had to be open to it I would never have
relinquished the bias. I was taught it was wrong and I needed to see that over time that it wasn't.
If we had stopped discussion we'd still be in the same places and wouldn't have grown. We each
come to center in our own way and time. Open discussion in respect to me is the best path
towards at least understanding another’s view but first fear needs to be overcome or at least
harnessed. IMHO

Maftet:
Well, this thread has certainly kept to the theme of shadows! shadows as in our hidden thoughts
and fears. shadows as things seen only partially so we begin to misinterpret and misunderstand
ourselves and each other.

Earthwalker, you comment on magic made me smile. Three years ago a good friend confessed to
me she was a witch and I was VERY startled. At the time it was an area I knew nothing about
and my upbringing in, every sense, was negative. I say "in every sense" since my western culture
heritage wasn't happy and my African culture knowledge wasn't happy either. They still kill
witches in Africa.

Ok, got to go - computer acting weird! If you see me later you'll know it didn't explode! I am
back! Whew! Just the fan playing up and making weird noises. Now to finish what I was trying to
say... if I still remember!

What I wanted to put was that under fear of a new idea your little "inner voice" still knows truth
from lies. Under any nervousness or fear of the unknown if you find a quiet place and listen
you'll know what's best. In my case my voice said - this is a time to learn about a different path.
So I asked my friend hundreds of questions and learnt all about her religious beliefs. I came
away better and wiser.

Earthwalker:
Maftet, I think any fear begs to be confronted. Through confrontation, I think you are right, you
come away different. Through understanding, you can see the similarities and also that which is
dissimilar and then you can make a choice of what is the right way for you and respect the choice
of others. Personally, I had searched different paths for many years and have always come back
to finding the Sacred in Nature. I seemed to have found a home on this path whatever it might be
called but it did require giving up the past bias against the supernatural world. I no longer want
to search other paths but want to explore this one deeper (even for that there doesn’t seem to be
enough time to do it all). From that perspective, I can understand the need to be open to all and
respect all but also the need to explore the details of one path and say this is home. I think it’s
somewhat like the contrast of a generalist and a specialist. Both perspectives are needed in the
larger context; whereas one or the other is needed in specific situations. I also think we just may
move along a continuum through life / lives; shadows from contrasts providing that movement
until the shadows are gone and we become one with Source Energy, Creator, Spirit or Universal
Consciousness. But that is speculation, I am not there yet and I wonder if we ever are
completely. Right now I am not sure I’d want to be, the journey itself is wonderful to experience.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
What is FEAR? I have several acronyms for FEAR and one is "False Evidence Appears Real".
meaning that we judge things with just a few facts instead of searching out the "Whole truth"
FEAR is the absence of faith and having no faith makes us fear the unknown. How many times
have we all been presented with some half-truths or not truths at all and acted on that
information, only to find later that we acted too hastily. Then later feel stupid, guilty, shameful
for acting that way. These are subordinates or the offspring of Fear.

How many times have we been confronted with a responsibility and ran from it because
responsibility frightened us? Fear comes in many forms and displays itself in as many ways
indecision, anger and frustration just to name a few. FEAR can be a great motivator and bring
on the "Fight or flight" response, causing us to either deal with the issue or ignore it completely.
My second acronym for Fear is "Face Everything And Recover" and my third is "F***
Everything And Run" Simple acronyms that explain a lot about Choice, Change, Faith, Truth
and insight. My apology if my third acronym is offensive and if you find it so, i will delete it, but
without "Faith" we Fear all that is or could be good. We always have the power of "Choice".

Maftet:
Wise and very thought provoking. "Face everything and recover" I'd say is the best and truest of
all. I've done my fair share of facing fears in the past and recently. It really is the only way you
can ever recover. I love the last one! I once woke up to find there was a small wild animal in my
bedroom. I went with number three and was out the bed and into the passage in one leap.
Actually it turned out to be a very sweet, very large frog. We reached a mutual understanding
that large frogs don't live under beds and he went outside without a struggle. Back home in South
Africa I was forever waking up to some creature in my bedroom. I've woken up to birds and bats
flying over my head and more frogs, toads and lizards than I can count. I miss that now, but not
the bugs!!

Earthwalker:
Jimmy, Thank you for the comments. I personally don’t have a real problem with the word faith.
I think faith is a five letter word like magic though that can bring up conditioning from the past
both good and harmful. Therefore, I usually use the words trust and belief. If it’s not intruding
could you go a little further. You have indicated “Religion was something that I could do without
but parents made me go. Got away at a fairly young age before there was any real damage done.
Found my native Roots and followed its path.” I don’t necessarily want to get into a religious
discussion here but maybe you could explain a little more about faith and the difference in the
two perspectives, I assume Christianity and the NA path. I think it is interesting how you and
Wachituga have very similar roots in some ways. How did you let go of the early conditioning?

Personally, I was raised in Christianity and as a child 5-6, I questioned. I remember in Sunday
school class (50 year ago, times have changed I hope) a discussion about the conversion of the
NA and our way was the only way. I raised my hand and asked why? I hated the answer
“because, have faith, our way is the only way". Didn't make sense then and it still doesn't. It is
from those roots that the word faith may conjure up so many bad feelings dependent upon the
struggle to overcome harmful conditioning. I am not sure that even that the early condition may
not be good since so many of our children raised without strong roots seem to be floundering.
Personally, I see Jesus as a spirit walker. What was intended on his path was correct it had been
man that has corrupted the intent. But that is my own personal bias or balance and should be
taken as such. I have had numerous arguments over the years with very conservative Christians,
in particular my boss, that say you can’t pick and choose the part of faith you like but must
accept it all. In respect for one another we have agreed that this is a subject we probably should
not discuss. We work well under those conditions with him knowing I am Catholic.
Getting back to the subject of shadows I agree you need to confront the shadows (fear to grow);
flight only leaves things to be resolved and to haunt you. Thanks for the comments and
discussion, have a nice day!

CinnamonMoon:
In my opinion there are two kinds of faith...blind faith, and that gained through experience that
validates where the blind faith is just that, surface value only. When you experience Spirit just
once that faith is unshakable, and such experience is generally found in a spiritual manner
rather than religious. Religion is for the masses, spirituality is the one on one relationship with
the Creator that each of us must find in our own way. IMHO. Once seen from these perspectives
the fear of the word "faith" vanishes.

Earthwalker:
Cinnamon, I agree with you but until you have that type of spiritual experience one may be
cautious thinking only in terms of religious connotations. In addition, when talking to others that
you don't know well you need to figure out where they are coming from; even individuals that
are religious still feel they are working in the realm of spirituality while spreading their religious
faith. Is really is just semantics but requires asking for definitions so you know where the person
is coming from.

CinnamonMoon:
True! *S* But when I find myself in such situations I usually can achieve that simply stipulating
the difference between the two as my perspective on things and that sets a stage as it were. Those
who have found a spiritual connection are quick to say they know what you're talking about and
those who have yet to find it tend to speak dogmatically. Either way you have a good idea where
the conversation will or will not go from there.

WolfSpirit:
Earthwalker, “To me divisiveness like discrimination is a resultant of fear; fear of the unknown
or past.”
Totally agree!

“Fear ends through observing examples, through exposure to the unknown and through
discussion. It leaves slowly over time as new and better models fill in the void as fear slowly
leaves. It takes time.”

Is fear not an illusion - an inability to see the truth of a situation - something coming between a
person and the Light of Truth: “shadow” perhaps: like a curtain being drawn to cut out the Light?
Yes, discussion can show us how to come back to the Light, but rarely can we see that it is “we”
who are coming from fear. Here we come back to what Maftet’s opening question means to me–
“shadow” lessons (and the “totems” that bring them) that come to show us where and how our
fears (illusions or even delusions?) are exhibiting themselves, and the detrimental effect these
shadows have on us (and others around us!): I guess I should not be surprised to find an
argument in a thread about shadow, for, as you point out fear (illusion?) takes time to break
down.

You are right Earthwalker, dialogue is the only way through, but if we, as people dedicated to
following a non-sectarian Spiritual path cannot listen and start getting bumptious: if we are not
“walking our talk” how can we hope to influence anything? One of the things I liked when
joining SL was that nobody was denigrated for holding a view that was not entirely in keeping
with Cinn’s (or SED’s, Wisowl’s or any of the other early member’s), unlike at other boards I
had come across.

I think I expressed myself badly in the last post – I felt there was a kinda trite dismissal: not to
people’s right to “Be” per se, but of their belief/practice/viewpoint – to me, as Wachituga stated,
this is dangerous as can be seen throughout the World today.

The validity of a belief can be questioned, as you have described: if it is wrong and the person
holding it is misconceived, then, with an open heart, they will see this; if a view is merely
different but in the end means the same, a person’s right to hold this view surely cannot be
questioned for the sake of tradition? The view (etc. etc.) may be shadow, that can be broken
down over time, but the right to hold it should surely not be denigrated, just because the meaning
is not word perfect to another’s way of thinking. Who then fails to have an open heart – the
person who is mistaken but accepts the other’s viewpoint or the one who totally fails to listen
and carries on exactly as before, even when the view is retracted or adversaries are no longer
evident?

This is difficult stuff and I know this is a problem the whole world is trying to solve right now:
how to talk when views are entrenched and people cannot listen to another’s viewpoint, let alone
challenge their own. We are living in an age when living up to a spiritual (religious?) tradition
seems to be a hard nut to crack through fear of failing to fulfil the expectations of both current
and previous generations: maybe this is the root of the problem: creating the fear in the first
place that propagates the defense that issues the attack!

It is surely much more enlightening to listen to many viewpoints and take from them that which
seems most likely the work of a Creator Force: forgetting the dogma and just “being” with Spirit
in your own way: this is what I have learned at SL and this is why I continue to come to SL to do
my best to try and practice. My own viewpoint on many things has changed whilst at SL, and
continues to do so!!!! I thank all the members here for that!

I guess I have always felt SL is a place to learn, and have strongly held the view since childhood
that nobody is beyond learning: no matter how clever they are, what they do for a living, or how
well versed they are in ritual/spiritual knowledge: everybody has room to learn. That’s what I felt
was missing from this thread….
“I think you are being optimistic.”

Maybe Earthwalker – but I feel we should always try to be the best that we can be, if we do not,
how can we hope to effect change?

Jimmy WhiteBear:
Hi EW, I once met a man that explai ned the difference between religion and spirituality this way.
"Religion is for those who are afraid to go to hell, spirituality is for those who have already been
there!"

Like you, I grew up Catholic and found it something i couldn't deal with. I believed God didn't
like me, and I certainly didn't like him. later in years I found myself alone and dying and refused
to turn to the God i grew up with. I met some people that helped me to find a Higher power and i
could believe anything i wanted about that Higher power.

Over a long period of time my faith has developed and re-developed again and again. I realize
today that faith has nothing to do with religion in my way of thinking although religionist will
say that having faith in your religion is the only way. It is that kind of thinking that destroyed
cultures and people!...

Spirituality is a place in the heart of all people and it is a place of all those good things about us
as human beings. Spirituality is about giving your heart to others to help them feel the spirit that
walks with us. Having faith in that spirit and always thinking about the "Next right thing" and if
we mess up and someone or something gets hurt, Try to do the "Next right thing".

I see religion as a constant contradiction of itself and those that practice it are nothing more
than hypocrites!... That judgement of religion was formed over a long period of time watching
others go to church and for one hour they are holy and the rest of the week they insist on judging
you. In reality, the only one that has the right to judge is the creator and all those men and
woman of society will have they're turn at being judged. LOL, I can't go any further on that
without turning this into a major B****.

Faith in the loving arms and eyes of the Creators is something found only in your heart and in
nature. The old ones have told us over and over that " the Earth does not belong to us, we belong
to her" Taking that one step further to "And she belongs to the creator!" Do I Believe that? Yup!,
Do I have faith in that? Yup! Do i believe that Mother Earth loves us? I do! and I believe the
creator loves us and her also. I can't explain why men are destroying her or why they're belief in
God is so shallow. Every breath we take is a gift not a right. Every morsel of food we eat is a gift
and do i have faith in that, I do! Do i always give thanks for that, i don't and i probably should,
we all should but then again--- There are no "Shoulds" in life is there?...

Faith is the absence of belief that all is true and right. Let me explain; Most have faith in what
they believe in but I believe few have faith in what they can’t see, hear, feel etc., In societies eyes,
faith is strongly associated with religion. The absence of faith is fear that the next morsel, the
next breath, the next drink of water won't be there so we must become greedy and hoard
everything we can just in case Mother earth and creator aren't doing their jobs. Lee says, The
absence of faith is an attitude of despair and I have to agree with that. LOL, Yes she is sitting
beside me reading this.

I hope that answers your question but one more thing; Spirituality is something we can discuss
for days on end and I think this thread is exactly that... a discussion about spirituality, faith,
belief, etc..

I was driving to Plum Island today to bring Jeb and Lee and I up to play on the beach. (Lee is
the Woman I walk with today, Jeb is our four-legged brother) From the time we left I could feel
Hawk with me and boy, was she talking. The exit before I get off RT 495 there in the far left
breakdown was hawk. Yes dead!... I went up and turned around came back to the next exit turned
myself around again and slowly drove north until i could see her twisted body on the side of the
highway. I pulled over and ran across and then grabbed her and ran back before any cars
reached us and put her in the back of my truck. When I got home I stopped to get a plastic tub
and Borax, came home and brought her to the den. The Old ones told me "take her outside and
do what you need to do," so I did. I saved her feathers and wrapped her in a red shroud and tied
it off with sinew. I will take her to the forest tomorrow and leave her body for the Spirit of the
forests to deal with. I have absolute faith that they will do just that...

I heard Hawk speak today as she still does as I sit here and speak with you. This day, Is the day
of the Hawk spirit, The messenger!... Thank you Earthwalker for helping hawk deliver us her
message today.

Earthwalker:
Jimmy, Thank you for your beautiful comments. Most of all thank you for taking care of Hawk;
she is very special to me.

Hi Wolf, A couple of comments
“…dialogue is the only way through, but if we, as people dedicated to following a non-sectarian
Spiritual path cannot listen and start getting bumptious: if we are not “walking our talk” how can
we hope to influence anything? One of the things I liked when joining SL was that nobody was
denigrated for holding a view that was not entirely in keeping with Cinn’s (or SED’s, Wisowl’s
or any of the other early member’s), unlike at other boards I had come across.”

I like exactly the same things as you have just said about Spirit Lodge. I don’t personally believe
anyone has been denigrated in this discussion. Wachituga expressed his thought in a manner that
made individuals think outside the box, Jimmy expressed counter points in as similar manner.

Others injected their views and feelings. What more can one ask for in bringing questions to be
discussed to the table. We each need to respect others and listen. I personally don’t have all the
answers and my way is not the only way for everyone but I don’t necessarily just run away if I
can’t have my way either. If anything life has tried to teach me it is patience. I think the real
answer to conflict is to walk one’s own path and simply teach by example. Problems seem to
arise when our own view is not readily accepted and we need to have agreement to our own way
instead of just being. Personally, I like the diversity of people’s belief since it is through all of
the beautiful expressions that we come to see more and more of Spirit and find our own way.
“I think I expressed myself badly in the last post – I felt there was a kinda trite dismissal: not to
people’s right to “Be” per se, but of their belief/practice/viewpoint – to me, as Wachituga stated,
this is dangerous as can be seen throughout the World today.”

I don’t think there was a dismissal at all; there was only counter views expressed and some
agreement with one view over the other. I think if further discussion took place that we could
have gotten through the semantics.

“The validity of a belief can be questioned.”
Yes.

“…if it is wrong and the person holding it is misconceived, then, with an open heart, they will
see this.”
Possibly but that is up to the person to choose, not ours to demand.

“…if a view is merely different but in the end means the same, a person’s right to hold this view
surely cannot be questioned for the sake of tradition?”
From my perspective all people have the right to hold their own view. It is only through
discussion, after getting past the semantics, we just might learn from one another.

“The view (etc. etc.) may be shadow, that can be broken down over time, but the right to hold it
should surely not be denigrated, just because the meaning is not word perfect to another’s way of
thinking.”

No, but if one challenges a view in a manner certainly one would expect to be challenged back. I
think the tone we challenge with can have the greatest impact and sometimes even a good storm
just clears the air.

“Who then fails to have an open heart – the person who is mistaken but accepts the other’s
viewpoint or the one who totally fails to listen and carries on exactly as before, even when the
view is retracted or adversaries are no longer evident?”

Neither fails. We each must walk are own way and find our own path. If we don’t have both
types of individuals (diversification), we would have nothing. How sad it would be if all people
on planet earth followed exactly the same path. I think we need to come together to understand
not to change or conquer. Will you and I agree, maybe or maybe not. The agreement is not as
important as is the discussion and the understanding of one another and the appreciation the
beauty of each and each other’s path.

I would hope by now the world would have given up the need to conquer and replaced it by the
need to be. The answer is not in conquering other beliefs but in appreciation of the beauty of
other ways and living in harmony and respect with one another. The answer is not necessarily in
changing other to believe in a secular path, a religious path etc. Overtime the balance may shift
between poles but to me it is in the balance of diversification / contrast that the true beauty of life
is seen. As an example, I personally feel that the world would be a far lesser place if the NA
perspective on spirituality had been wiped out and that would go for all of the other ancient
perspectives as well. It has taken, I suspect, individuals of very strong conviction to keep these
practices alive. I am thankful to them and all the others that light our way in ancient knowledge.
Equally I am thankful to all of the individuals who have broken down the walls of
fundamentalism so that there is at least a beginning understanding and respect of one another. I
personally think the key is as Eric Fromm said “to be, rather than to have”. We don’t need to
have ideas or have them accepted, we just need to be and live by them for others to see.
PS If you like to read and ever get a chance read "The Sparrow" I can't remember the author. It is
fantasy novel going into another world but completely bring you to a realization of our own
biases and how rights and wrongs are culturally determined and the mess we get into based on
predetermined expectations.

Maftet:
Mmm, religion is always a tricky topic. I think it could be dangerous to start seeing spirituality
as "superior" to religion since they are so inter-connected. Every religion started with one
person reaching a spiritual revelation that they shared. It is only dangerous or harmful when
that sharing becomes regimented into "this is what you MUST believe/do" rather than "this is
what I believe/do and want to share with you".

I have friends and family that range through all the main religions and a few more unusual
"offshoots and branches". I see no problems with that and most of the time there aren't any. Now
and then I've had the odd friend try to "convert" me, but it's only been because they like me and
want me to be completely a part of their lifestyle and I've usually found ways to dodge the issue
without hurting their feelings.

Only when a group or individual starts to think their way is the "only way" or the "superior way"
is it something potentially harmful. Otherwise I'm all for everyone finding what suites them. It's
all about being true to yourself. Every year I send out my best wishes or blessings for Diwali,
Hanukkah, Christmas, Easter, Passover, Samhain, Yule and Ramadan. For many people their
religion is their way of expressing their spirituality and when it's done honestly it's beautiful. The
diversity is, to me, such a wonderful sign of human creativity.

WhyteFox:
Earthwalker ~Excellent book! The author is Mary Doria Russell. Ursula K. LeGuin's books and
stories offer many of the same observations in a different way. One of my favorites is "The
Telling." Her "Left Hand of Darkness" shook me up when I was in my college days and started
me really thinking. I agree, Mouse. Thanks for your observations.

WolfSpirit:
Earthwalker, I don't think our view are that dissimilar, and would like to reply:
“I don’t personally believe anyone has been denigrated in this discussion.”

To me words hold energy – and the flippancy of some of the replies seemed to convey an energy
that was not respectful. If someone has gone to great lengths to put a view forward whatever the
content, surely that deserves a respectful response? The words themselves were not openly
disdainful – but the energy behind them appeared to try to tritely belittle. I am aware that some
members sometimes “throws the cat amongst the pigeons” and you may recall I have been on the
receiving end in a similar discussion! I learned so much from that situation! In this respect yes,
the air can be cleared. I really respect people for having the courage to do that. To walk their talk
not just preach it. I just felt that observations were sometimes trivialized with comments that
“closed” the debate before it got started. The problem for me here is that I have seen this happen
before on another board and feel that kinda energy, if it were to creep in here, could change all
the reasons we both agree make SL such a great board.

“We each need to respect others and listen.”
Exactly!

“Personally, I like the diversity of people’s belief since it is through all of the beautiful
expressions that we come to see more and more of Spirit and find our own way.”
This is exactly my point!

“I said: if it is wrong and the person holding it is misconceived, then, with an open heart, they
will see this. You said: Possibly but that is up to the person to choose. Not for us to demand.
“Possibly but that is up to the person to choose.”
Of course.

“…not ours to demand.”
I am not saying that I think anyone here was demanding anything – perhaps trying to release
something out of “shadows”: demanding to me is too strong a word.

“I think the tone we challenge with can have the greatest impact.”
I agree – if the same lesson is coming again and again and being ignored maybe a sharper tone is
required: maybe some people are here for just that moment.

“Neither fails.”
Hmm. Not entirely sure on that point but enjoyed reading your view and will let that swirl in the
ether till i can land it!

“We each must walk are own way and find our own path.”
Of course.

“If we don’t have both types of individuals (diversification), we would have nothing. How sad it
would be if all people on planet earth followed exactly the same path. I think we need to come
together to understand not to change or conquer.”
I agree! This is my point!

“Will you and I agree, maybe or maybe not. The agreement is not as important as is the
discussion and the understanding of one another and the appreciation the beauty of each and each
other’s path.”

It was that “beauty” that “appreciation” I felt was missing at times in this thread.
“I would hope by now the world would have given up the need to conquer and replaced it by the
need to be. The answer is not in conquering other beliefs but in appreciation of the beauty of
other ways and living in harmony and respect with one another.”
Totally agree.

“The answer is not necessarily in changing other to believe in a secular path, a religious path etc.
Overtime the balance may shift between poles but to me it is in the balance of diversification /
contrast that the true beauty of life is seen.”

Yes, but surely in an era when any kind of spirituality is almost non-existent in many
(particularly youth) cultures, is it not a good thing to have some kind of belief? Surely a belief of
some kind stops the kind of Ego mentality that sees that Beauty disappearing: all over the world
people are searching for meaning in their life: traditional religion is largely failing (well at least
here in the UK), leading to fundamentalism in all “faiths” as people try and cling on to
something: all that seems to ensue is dogma. I live in a town ravaged by racial/religious riots:
there are parks: streets: shops were the majority are in physical danger if they enter just because
of religion! Is this Beauty? Should we as people following a non-sectarian Spiritual path not try
and at least set an example: if a lurker not following a spiritual path, but seeking that meaning in
their lives were to read some of the comments in this thread – what would they think?

“As an example, I personally feel that the world would be a far lesser place if the NA perspective
on spirituality had been wiped out and that would go for all of the other ancient perspectives as
well. It has taken, I suspect, individuals of very strong conviction to keep these practices alive. I
am thankful to them and all the others that light our way in ancient knowledge.”

Again this is why we are all here surely - to learn these ways – to listen to those who pass on this
knowledge: I totally agree with your comments: my point was that no belief should remain
stagnant in tradition alone otherwise Spiritual beliefs will start to falter as many more modern
“religious” beliefs have. Yes, they are routed in tradition and tradition IS very important: but
change should be considered: adaption: transformation etc etc Lack of ability to adapt by peoples
from older spiritual beliefs is surely why so many ancient traditions fell from significance, and
why so many more modern religions are struggling today: Creator did not give us a brain to
remain stagnant surely?

“We don’t need to have ideas or have them accepted, we just need to be and live by them for
others to see.”

Couldn’t agree more! To me it is when people fail to live be them and just preach that we fall
into difficulty. I think Earthwalker that overall we share a very similar outlook – we may have
slightly different viewpoints – and by sharing we learn – and this is the Beauty of SL. I just don’t
want to see that disappearing as it did on other boards as one viewpoint seemed to become the
ONLY viewpoint allowable.

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
“I just don’t want to see that disappearing as it did on other boards as one viewpoint seemed to
become the ONLY viewpoint allowable.”

Not a chance. All of the spirit keepers (Cinn and I included) keep in regular touch with Spirit
and we check each other if we find ourselves standing with a strong fist. We all have our
moments after all LOL. Beyond that - most at SL respect that aspect of our collective path so,
even if the spirit keepers were to have a collective brain fart, I feel just about everyone would
step forward and let us know that they feel there's a lesson for us we may have missed. Here,
Spirit speaks with many voices, not just one and I feel personally, that's what makes this place
unique (and what makes me love working so hard LOL). When we say that Creator runs this site
- we mean it. Just felt that had to be expressed. We now return you to this wonderful,
enlightening never ending discussion.

WolfSpirit:
SEDD, I know that in reality this could never happen. This is the beauty of SL!

CinnamonMoon:
And may I add $.02 cents worth here about the "flippancy" issue (I know I'm guilty of that from
time to time too)? There are days (speaking for myself here) that I'm hard pressed for time,
sometimes I have to literally fly through here to check posts and comment. On those occasions I
may not be able to compose my thoughts as readily as I'd like to, someone could say something
(example: this thread and Jimmy's comment "EGO=Ease God Out") may tickle me with it's truth
and I'll giggle. That doesn't mean I take it less seriously.

Stepping out of my own perspectives on this note, there are many people who struggle with
words, finding it difficult to express themselves and I see time and again where they are taken
incorrectly. Many here have language difficulties and there are countless reasons that
communication either lacks intent or bogs down. In this context, if the individual comes back
with time on their hands to correct the situation (and these issues are not considered) it may
seem they are contradicting themselves or wishy-washy. Please consider the time and language
factors too.

SEDD is right, Spirit does reside here and it's our intent to share not dictate anything. Opinions
get strong from time to time, and that's to be expected. Debates are healthy when they get fired
up. Sometimes we have to see what's triggering our emotional responses and step out of the
emotion to look at the issue. Lots of *stuff* comes into play. As Administrators of the site we
hope that we maintain an open attitude and supportive foundation for everyone to voice their
opinions. Again, as SED indicated...if we are appearing not to *P-l-e-a-s-e* bring it to our
attention. All of us are watching this thread which is indeed a shadow lesson, enlightening, and
fascinating. Hey, a little drama keeps it interesting, eh?

Earthwalker:
HI SL, Thanks for all the comments but for right now personally I have said enough. I am in
complete agreement with the other views as expressed, SL will always be open to many views.

Jimmy,
Thank you for sharing so much of your path.

I needed to comment just a little more about Hawk. Thank you again for letting her Spirit fly
free. I have no doubt that her placement in the forest, therein giving back to the very
environment which nourished her, was the appropriate place for her body to be. I went to sleep
thinking about Hawk and awoke this morning still thinking of her. As I drove to work I saw her
spirit soaring on light; her underwing feathers glistened in the light upon which she soared
(almost like mica shining in the sunlight). I then saw her standing near my right arm; she kept
calling and was very much in detail. I kept seeing her hovering over or on top of something and
then she kept stretching out her right wing; not the left only the right. I am not sure if this means
anything to you. I am clueless. Thank you both (yourself and Lee) for taking the time to care.
She is free. I am glad you are walking with Lee you both seem very happy. So when does Lee
express some opinions around her?

Whyte Fox, Thank you for adding the author. I haven't read the other books. They do sound
interesting.

NorthernStar:
“As Administrators of the site we hope that we maintain an open attitude and supportive
foundation for everyone to voice their opinions.”

Cinn, you all do such a beautiful work here... It feels safe and warm and open and caring... A
safe and sheltered and sacred space... A room to develop...
“Many here have language difficulties ...”

And yes, this is true... Sometimes words come more "hard" than they were meant - because of the
lack of a better vocabulary... I sit here with the dictionary but it does not always help to express
what the heart really wants to say... Let us all be open in tolerance and acceptance - and seeing
the effort each one of us makes - in his/her own way... It may encourage each of us to go on,
too...

Jimmy WhiteBear:
Lee has just begun to find her new path and is undergoing many changes. I am sure that when
she feels a need to share with us she will. I will not press her to step forward on anything
spiritual or anything else until the old ones have asked me to or she asks... She must learn the
lessons as we all have in creators time. I will say that she is more connected then even she
realizes and through nurturing her path she will one day soon come in and express herself. I will
say, Creator has allowed me to show her some very wondrous things and she is in awe of what
she has seen so far.

Let share a story of lee and I with Crow and Raven. There is a cornfield where Lee, Jeb and i
frequent with a beautiful stream that babbles through. One morning I went down there alone for
prayer and meditation, Hunting season had not yet begun. A man came down and was using
crow and raven as target practice. I went and reported him to the police and then went home to
get Lee so we could go back and collect the bodies of the fallen Winged-ones and release they're
spirits. Lee and i searched the area and found 5 or 7 fallen brothers and sisters, placed them
under the pines and did ceremony to release them. As ceremony ended, Lee saw the spirits fly
into the west, circle and then leave-- into the west. At the same moment, about one hundred
Crows and Ravens flew overhead, circled and flew into the east. She just looked at me in awe
and said something to the effect of "They have flown back to creator and the others are thanking
you for protecting them." I do not know what has happened to the Poacher but I don't believe he
has been back. There were other instances where he had been there doing the same thing and got
away with it and I held ceremony after the crime. That time, I got the S.O.B..

As for Hawk, I am sorry to say that whatever hit her on the Highway was traveling at a very high
rate of speed. On impact she died instantly, she did not suffer. Her left side was shattered which
is why you seen only her right wing beating air. Her spirit was set free and sent back to the spirit
world from where she came. After a long rest, she will return to this plane To Soar the winds
again...Lee will join us when she is ready to. She is very respectful not to intrude in the Bears
Den and always asks permission before she does anything. I suspect that she will do the same
when she is ready to learn more...

Earthwalker:
Just some after thoughts about this thread. As I try to put into words my feelings and answers to
the questions on interrelationship and respect, I partly think we each learn differently; some
learn in openness and then move towards faith or belief. Some learn first in faith and belief and
then move towards openness in different and unique sequences and I am sure that there is every
possible permutation in between. So in reality we are talking about a fluid exchange between
ourselves, as the center of our own universe, and our species and all life forms on planet earth
and even the universe. Linguistically I don’t feel I have the skills to put the feelings evoked by
this flow, feeling or energy exchange into words. This natural exchange or flow begs to be
written differently. As I struggle with this and held it in mind this morning I was flipping through
a new book by an author I like N.Scott Momaday. I found a short excerpt that I was drawn to
when he mentioned the Ghost Ranch. This drew my attention since it is near the Ghost Ranch
where I have found the rocks I had seen in vision. They are at Plaza Blanc (White Rocks),
Abiquiui, New Mexico. I found them when I saw a picture of them at the Villodo website in a trip
to the canyon lands. The chapter of the book was called Octopus. I read on and will quote here
since I think at least to me this selection capture this exchange of energy depicting
interrelationship in a very unique non-threatening way.. It is from the book entitled The Man
Made of Words (Essay, Stories , Passages)ISBN 0-312-18742-4.

“the tide was out and there were pools in the sand. Then I saw something in one of the pools ….
It was an octopus, small and motionless … and it seemed to be dead……. It was supple and stark
in the water, the color of bone and I was afraid to touch it. After a while I got a stick and probed
it. Suddenly it blushed pink and blue and violet, and it began to writhe about. The stiff reaction,
total and grotesque alarmed me, for everything about it seemed to describe some profound
agony……………….I supposed that it would go off at once into the depth but no, it settled again
and lay still. I like to think that it might have been dealing with me, that in its alien, ocean mind,
it was struggling to take my presence into account, that I had touched its deep, essential life, and
it would never lose the impression I had made upon it………… And now I wonder, what does it
mean that, after these years, I should speak of the octopus? It may be that I had saved its life, but
I know very little about the life of an octopus and I shall not presume to say what salvation is to
either of us. Only just now, as a strange loneliness, it occurs to me that this creature has, for
some years now, been of some small consequence in the life of my mind. And I wonder if, in the
dark night of the sea, there deep within its own sphere of instinct, the octopus dreams of me.”

CinnamonMoon:
Earthwalker, that's just beautiful. Thank you for sharing it!

Wachituga:
The ego is absolutely essential. Everyone has an ego. It's what people use to defend themselves
and keep themselves safe from disruptive and negative influences. Ego is essential to functions
such as critical thinking abilities, free will, independent decision making, informed consent,
psychological defenses, rationality and other cognitive processes, values, ideas, attitudes,
conduct, discernment, planning, etc. This is all essential stuff which we can't function without. It
does no conflict with spirituality at all. On the contrary, it would be necessary to incorporate it.
No evaluation of spiritual experience can be made without the ego playing a part.

Anyone and everyone who has studied the western concept of ego would understand this. The
very different alternative concepts in some Eastern spiritual philosophy and in Greek philosophy
are much simpler and would clearly not be relevant to the kinds of discussions which have taken
place on the Spirit Lodge boards.

It's a common manipulation technique often used by cults to encourage people to question their
identity, to have self-doubt, to become established and easier to manipulate. But "advanced
spiritual" people in usually try to stay well clear of this kind of damaging disruption. They avoid
disturbing peoples' sense of identity and they ensure that people retain the capacity to choose for
themselves and to evaluate accurately based on their own experience and using their mind
correctly. An advanced spiritual person who understood anything much about ego would never
make vague, oblique and confusing references to ego in my opinion.

Apart from this important matter of integrity and respect, it would be pointless anyway because
there is nothing constructive that can be done directly with the entire ego. It incorporates too
many aspects. Even with the Eastern definition where the term "ego" is more restricted to sense
of self as a distinct identity, the intention is not to destroy the ego but to develop and expand to
universal consciousness at which point the ego ceases to exist through merging into that
universal consciousness. The ego has obviously come into play in everything that's been written
by everyone here in this thread. Everyone has made assumptions and judgements about things
based on their own experiences, values and attitudes. And they are all different, because the egos
are all different.

Jimmy WhiteBear:
TY for your .02 worth.

Earthwalker:
Wachituga and Jimmy, I believe I said to Cinnamon at least once that it would be good to have
some men’s perspectives on these topics. I have also said that you two are some of my favorite
writers since you both have very strong and diverse opinions. I also believe very strongly in open
discussion. I also indicated that it was good to see you both back. All of these statements are still
true. However….

Wachituga, The intent of your final message somehow felt like a challenge. IMHO I need to ask;
aren’t you sick of discussing ego?

Jimmy, Thank you for not responding to the challenge but somehow the $0.02 worth I personally
didn’t view as helpful.

Earthwalker to Earthwalker, You learned a good lesson; mind your own business. If they want to
themselves, let them do it; that way they will both have the last word and will win (?); at least in
some obscure place of a man’s mind. And you wonder why you never remarried? Just look at
these exemplary models teaching our children of peace by example. Earthwalker to Wachituga
and Jimmy, I do apologize that my frustration is showing but I am sick of the word ego, whether
it is spelled ego, Ego, eGo, egO, Ego, EgO, eGO, or EGO. Personally I hope I never see the
three letter word again IMHO. Have a nice day! If you choose not to walk in peace, so be it; it is
your choice.

Wachituga:
Earthwalker, To be fair to Jimmy, I don't have any problem with Jimmy's reply. I think I
understood perfectly well what he meant. And I don't see any reason to see anything negative in
it. I won't comment on my own intent. It would not add to or take away from the value (or
otherwise if you prefer) of the substance of what I wrote. I don't think it's necessary for me to try
to defend myself or my reasons. I'm not that insecure, and it would just be a waste of time.

Silver Eagle Dream Dancer:
Good conversation everyone but before we start beating dead horses - we'll close out this thread.
All we ever hope to do here is offer our ideas, thought, guidance, hopes and maybe share a part
of our paths with others. At times, that will lead to a challenge of perception, ideals, education
and resolve but, in the end - hopefully, we're all better for the journey.

We have never before felt the need to close a thread here on Spirit Lodge and we hope we'll
never feel the need to again. We value all voices and over the course of the last day or so, it
didn't feel right for the needs of the community to silence this thread. In the spirit of everything
being a learning experience, we have learned as best we can from it. Realistically, there will be
times SL admin are challenged to act in the best interests of the community. Each time in the past
that such a event has happened, the admin have risen to the challenge, learned, listened to Spirit,
grew and still managed to preserve the openness of SL without sacrificing the respect of those
who participate here. I hope this time will be no different and that we've come up with something
to address situations like this should they ever arise again that encourage growth without
silencing the voice of the community.

To that end, this is how we'll address situations like this, should they ever happen again: We will
temporarily close a thread to encourage a 'cooling off' period and then reopen it a few days
later. This will be an opportunity for those who've participated to reflect on the entirety of the
conversation and to answer with clearer heads. We have the best group on the net! We don't
anticipate having to do this often, if ever. But we did want you all to know that now we have a
procedure for these situations.

In continuation of this particular conversation, please keep in mind what it was originally about,
what's been learned and keep it on the track of exploration of the topic rather than sidetracking
into the 'ego' discussion. (with apologies to Earthwalker for having to see that word one more
time LOL) Thank you for your continued patience. We are all a work in progress.

Arctickaiku:
Hi SL, It seems to me that I have done a full circle here, on this board, starting from this thread.
What I wanted to point to here is the 4th dimensional self, what my ancestors called "itse".....
meaning .....THE Self ...... and this "itse" is also called: the shadow deity, the shadow soul, the
shadow self or one's shadow nature, - when it takes the form of an animal .... our Totem.

It is not "shadow" in a sense, that it is negative, evil or satanic! It is called shadow, because you
get these fleeting glimpses of it, and because it follows a person like a shadow .... because the
superimposed images of it are like "shadows", and also because this 4th dimensional self, like
thunderclouds; - hold energy, hence this 4th dimensional self has a feel of being an "energy
entity" ..... That even if we sense a projected 4th dimensional "entity" present with us, -we can
usually, from the energy signatures .... tell who it is, or at least it's intent.

This 4th dimensional self, is also called "deity", because 4th dimensionally we are attuned to our
higher guidance. It is also called "soul", because we believe that person has many souls ... like
3rd dimensional "soul" that goes to earth after death, 4th dimensional "soul" that reincarnates,
and 5th dimensional "soul" .... our 5th dimensional spirit-self.

Our Shamanic Ancestors spent a lot of time in the 4th dimension, and from the 4th dimensional
point of view, the breathing body-mind is just a manifestation of the real self . This 3rd
dimensional body-mind houses knowledge, but only the 4th dimensional self is like
....."awareness energy ---- body". I am sooooo slow, and it has taken me this long to clarify ... to
myself, what I was on about! May have not done such a good job of it for others.

Northernwolf:
Artic, if you read this I'd be interested in hearing about the different dimensional selves if you
want to talk about it. Thanks

Arctickaiku:
Northern Wolf....I do not really have anything more to add to that "shadow" self-soul-protectortotem
question. It is just how people used to name these "fleeting glimpses" of multidimensional
projection/overlays in my language. The only thing since then, that has come up to my attention
... has been about astral projection ..... "types". But this is a totally different from the above stated
"shadow" topic. All my adult life, occasionally .... I get these "sleep paralysis" states. Which is
when you realize that you are fully awake, yet your body is still asleep, and there is an astral
projection in the room. Some while ago now, when I awoke in this sleep-paralysis state, there
was an astral body standing next to me, that was like "pulsating liquid light" within its "aura".

This was new. Usually these astral bodies/projections look like people .... as they are .... people
that I know or people that I don't know, but will shortly meet. In these situations, there seems to
be consciousness on both sides about what is happening, - whether it is remembered in "dayawareness"
or not. The third type of astral projection has been, when the other person has not
been conscious of it's projection into my energy-field presence. A person who is not "astrally",
4th dimensionally aware .... a person who is not "awake" ... i.e. has no introspection i.e.
objectivity into his/her own though processes .... emotions .... desires ...They do not seem to form
a proper body, just this dark oppressive mass of unconscious emotional-psychic-energy-need to
interfere with your energy somehow ... Not evil or negative really as such ... either ... just not
pleasant at all.

Marila:
What you describe is very, very helpful for me... Thank you very much for sharing it...
I started to be with your posts in "getting it without words". I am with the message, then, and
step back from getting it on the "understanding the words" level, so that there is no "real need"
to discuss the choice of words, but being open to understand what is meant beyond the language
level. Being with your post on a level "without words" it feels very, very well for me (it is so often
with your posts that this happens to me very easily, it is helpful for me...) what you brought with
your post. You helped to bring into my consciousness of feeling/"knowing" for me something I
was with but I did not consciously stepped back to look at it this way... Now the information
comes from a deeper level into the more conscious level for me so that I get it on the more
conscious level, too... This helps me a lot...

(I am not sure whether I am understood... But I write it how it feels and is for me...)
When you write, Arctik, I feel that I am not linked to your words but very, very quickly dive in so
deep level behind the word level - there is a gift in your posts to transform and to step over the
word level, something that helps diving deeper into levels of consciousness that - for me - are
very helpful and beautiful to be with... Being with these deeper levels things come to me on these
non-word-levels - and then I am able to bring this back into the word-levels again - diving deep
before and bringing conscious information with me, then... I am just now floating into an endless
ocean, dark, dark blue, like black-blue ink, and from this your post emerges in pictures so that I
get it - having stepped back from the word level first, diving deep beyond the word-level, getting
the information there without words, and then bringing this information I got back into the word level...

What a beautiful level of being with the messages that come with reading your post...I just
wanted to express this - saying thank you again... I will be with your posts before again to get
more again on the non-word-level...

Arctickaiku:
Yes ! .... exactly ! ..... Marila ! That i-s the point ! ..... I am trying to bring across. But understand
.... I am not often getting that point myself. Very feeble at this. Thank You .... Thank You .... for
understanding !

P.S.
I had printed your post, so that I could relax and read it properly, before responding. But since
the black ink had run out, blue ink got mixed up with your words .... and mine ....So there you go
..... funny that ....

 

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