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SPIRIT
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Sacred
Feminine &
Sacred Masculine
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The 36 pages in this Sacred Feminine & Sacred Masculine
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Masculine Spirituality
Request for Information
By Lune
Hello all, I am looking really
specifically for men's shamanic and spiritual perspectives.
In particular approaches that can be taken in teaching men as
opposed to women. I went all through the SL library and got
lots of stuff. I am wondering if anyone has any websites, info,
or book suggestions. Thank you for any help.
StarBearWalking:
(((Lune)))
Archie Fire Lame Deer Sr. wrote 'The Lakota Sweat Lodge Cards'
ISBN 0-89281-456-x I find them to be very informative, but the
teachings are masculine viewpoints, IMHO
His son wrote
a book about his life and how he helped bring the Sweat Lodge
into American prisons. "Gift of Power, the Life and Teachings
of a Lakota Medicine Man" by Archie Fire Lame Deer and
Richard Erdoes ISBN 1-879181-12-6 Don Miguel Ruiz has books
out and I think they are very masculine, so much so I can't
read them.
Jimmy WhiteBear:
Hi
Lune, I am not sure what you are asking for so I will say this.
There were many things that only men could do, many tools woman
were not allowed to touch especially during their Moontime.
The Moontime for woman is a very sacred time and the energy
flow is for them to release. It is a time the female body is
being purified. The thought or the idea is that the negativity
would be transferred to the sacred object. It is also why they
have the Moon Lodge because it is a very sacred time that woman
need to be either alone or with other women.
SweatLodge
was something only men did because it allowed us the time to
connect with mother earth, this is also the reason why women
were not allowed on the tribal drum. Again the thought is that
women are already connected to mother earth, men have to GET
connected and both the lodge and the drum did this for men.
Talking
circles and sitting in counsel, Men would sit in the inner circle
women would surround the men in an outer circle and this was
to protect and energize the Counsel. This and much more were
practices, traditions that where very much part of both personal
and tribal spirituality... Hope this helps?
StarBearWalking:
Greetings!
Bear, Thank you, those are important points that aren't talked
about much. And being a woman I don't have that perspective.
The cards and book are tools I've found to help me understand
a little.
Lune:
Thanks for those book suggestion
Starbear. I will look into them. Bear, thanks for that info.
I am trying to build up my understanding of how a man finds
his own power, and what a man's power actually consists of.
And where does a person's power become their gender's power...
if that makes sense?
Actually I might explain that a bit
better! In my own instance, it is like I have "these"
particular areas of power, but the interpretation is through
a very female way. I am presuming it is the same for a man?
And if so ...can you identify the areas of power and then interpret
them for the gender? Or, do you find the areas of power through
looking in a gender-specific fashion? And if so for the latter,
what are the gender specific ways? Or is it more like: here
is personal power, here is the power of your gender? Most of
my training has been with women, so I kinda never had to translate
a man's way of working.
I discovered something about our
society the other week. I was in the local bookshop, looking
and Self- help/new age/spirituality. And about 85% of those
books were obviously written for women. And the other 15% were
written for either gender. I couldn't see any at all that were
written for men specifically. Weird. Like they are invisible,
the presumed norm is white middle class male. Anything else
is a something. An "other".
StarSister:
That's
really interesting Lune. Now that you mention it, the books
generally are directed more towards women. Most of the trainings
I have attended have been about 75% women and 25% men. (Though
interestingly, about half of the teachers have been men!) In
discussing with male students, I have found that they tend to
have taken a somewhat different path to arrive at the same place
as the women. I have usually found it to be more of an 'intellectual'
path rather than an 'intuitive' one. For example becoming curious
from a scientific perspective, like an interest in physics leading
to quantum physics etc. I have also met men who have entered
the shamanic path through other doorways including astrology
and farming. Having a fairly strong 'masculine' side myself,
I also entered the path in a similar way through an interest
in psychology and wondering what makes people 'tick'. In love
and light.
Wynsong:
One
of the things that happened in the East for our Allyu (Star
Sister's and mine) was the men in our group, connect with each
other for the first time, in a way they never had before. A
way that did not include the women. They were quite thrilled
with it.
Until
that time, most of them found that they did better, felt more
comfortable working with and relating to women, and finding
a small group of men who were in so many essential ways kindred,
it took them some time to open to their relationship potential
with each other.
Munay
chi
Jimmy WhiteBear:
I
also Seem to have spent more time learning from women and few
men. I don't believe that spirituality differentiates between
man and woman. I came to my path through emotional turmoil and
trying to rationalize what was going on in me. My search was
anger based and looking for some sort of peace with it all.
I do believe that women find their way to the medicine path
more easily than men because we tend to rationalize more. After
all, Male upbringing for eons has always been "don't talk
about problems, shut up and deal with it!" So for men to
become connected to the earth mother requires a great deal of
acceptance. What I have been taught from my Male elders/friends
is that we need balance in our lives and balance meant connecting
with our female sides. Learning how to be caring and nuturing.
After all, our positions in life has always been to Be the "Hunter/gatherer"
and the woman to be the "life givers and nurturer"
But!,
Spirituality isn't about gender roles it is about the relationship
we have developed with ourselves, others and creation. It is
about being in balance and balance can only mean being in touch
with both male and female sides!... Personal power comes from
the experiences we have been through in our lives. it isn't
something that is handed to us or passed from generation to
generation. Personal medicine/power is just that, personal!
Spirituality is something very private and personal and when
shared with another(s) Should be based on what it means to the
individual, not what it is!...
The
presumed norm is "White Anglo-Saxon" middle class
meaning White Christian based and anything outside of that is
abnormal. Today, There is a great movement to find something
more meaningful in our mundane lives that can provide enough
proof that there is a creator and he is real. Spirituality seems
to provide this to all of us rather than having to go to church
or whatever once per week and believe what the masses believe.
An
old friend once said to me "Religion is for those who are
afraid to go to hell, spirituality is for those who have already
been there!" Having seen this and been through this, i
have to agree that spirituality comes to us because of the experiences
we have attained in our lives and who teaches it or how it comes
to us is up to the spirits, creator and the great Earth Mother!
Bear
StarSister:
I
agree with what you say Bear, and I love that quote - it's very
'freeing' to me. In love and gratitude.
Wynsong:
I
agree with you too Bear, especially about finding the wholeness
in the feminine and masculine of things. I'm still digesting
Cinnamon's post on the Solar Crone, but immediately noticed
her referral to the Lunar feminine for those struggling with
the Solar feminine....
This
quote caught my eye though... “The presumed norm is "White
Anglo-Saxon" middle class meaning White Christian based
and anything outside of that is abnormal.”
Because
the norm for most of the population of the world is not White
Anglo Saxon Christian based mythology. It is mine, as I am ancestrally
those things....It is the basis of current North American's
as the continent's current dominant culturally identifiable
countries were founded by people with that ancestry. . . and
we all know they weren't the "founding" peoples of
the Americas, but that is another discussion.
It invades
the economics of many of the "global" markets because
the economic mythological structure (supply/demand) is such
an integral part of the North American mind set, and the North
American market is so powerful...It is prevalent in Europe,
although not universal as Wolfie has been teaching me, because
there was so much inter marriage of those cultures during the
history of them...and of course the Anglo Saxon dominance ("the
Sun never sets on the United Kingdom/Brittania/the British Commonwealth")
of last century means that many cultures have been exposed to
it, and know it, but don't necessarily subscribe to it.... I'm
thinking that letting go of beliefs like that is a part of the
shift we/I need to make for the healing of the world (if I hold
the belief that it needs healing - which reminds me of Badger's
thread)....because I find that when I hold a belief I bring
its proof to my Self.
Another
example that fits with the concept that Masculine spirituality
experience may be separate and unique from the Feminine spirituality
experience, is that I long maintained a belief in "White
Male Privilege", and so found examples of it everywhere,
and found that that led to an intent on my part to "overcome"
its influence in my life...which led to the universe giving
me examples of it to work on. ...When I let go of the belief,
I found it no longer affected me on such an intimate level.
(It is a path that is a little too big to elaborate on in this
thread, so I just use it as an example...)
I'm hoping
on the last parts of my journey on this dance to find a way
to allow the Masculine and Feminine within me to reunite into
the Whole. (Part of a different thread, but one Soul Retrieval
in my journey brought back a two part mitochondria for me....One
masculine part intertwined with one feminine part. . . I am
still working to fully live retrieval)
Munay
chi
WilderWitch:
I'm reading
two incredible books right now- One seems like it would be completely
counter to what you are asking- BUT- it TALKS A LOT about the
differences- The men's sweat lodge thing- the others are completely
right but what I'm not sure if I might have missed is that-
they have a negative energy release too- the difference is the
blood-blood/sweat- bodily fluids but mean the same thing and
will do the same thing- sort of (I'm not finished with the book
yet lmao) but this book is called- The Woman in the Shaman's
Body- Title implies that Shaman were always men- which isn't
the case as most know now- "but" that book does go
through a lot of the differences- why they are differences-
it explains both basically- The author is: Book Title: The Woman
is the Shaman's Body- Reclaiming the Feminine in Religion and
medicine- by: Barbara Tedlock PH.D Like I said- it talks about
"reclaiming" in the title- but it has been discussing
both-
Now there's another
book I'm reading as well called The Secrets of Shamanism by
Jose and Lena Stevens - They too are discussing the fact that
her husband had certain things to do for "his" initiations
and she had her own- Books to think about anyway .
Lune:
Please bear with me while
I feel my way through this...I can understand Bear's comments
about personal power being personal power, and the need for
both genders to be balanced in both masculine and feminine energies.
But what I am wondering is... how do people, male or female,
get in touch with their masculine side? What is the masculine
side? I don't think our society understands it. We are shown
from TV that being a man is about drinking beer and being a
couch-warrior as we watch other men battle in the sporting arena.
(I am Australian, and we are sports-mad, and a Territorian,
the sports maddest of the mad, so hence that particular analogy).
But I know that isn't what it is about. But then again, the
stuff I have read about what is masculine spirituality still
seems ... not entire.
Perhaps not quite getting the point.
Let alone providing guidelines for a man to navigate through
our world with (I am thinking of my brother’s for e.g.
here). They struggled with this each in their own way, and found
the existing modalities for masculine power inadequate, either
the beer-drinking one, or the shamanic one or any other, in
a way I didn't find the shamanic woman's/feminine modal inadequate.
(I found it reassuring and empowering.) There is mention here
of the sweat-lodge, and other ways men can get in touch with
their spirituality, with the implication they need to do something
external where a woman is already in touch with it. WHY is this
so? What external things, what is driving the particular methods
for men getting in touch with their power? Why are they affective?
is anything external, when spiritually applied, effective? Do
women learn about their masculine side by external means? Do
men? Or does gender have nothing to do with it?
Wynsong, I think I understand what
you are saying about beliefs proving themselves, but this isn't
a personal "belief". This is a search as a teacher
for what will work, be effective, in a specific situation. I
need to transcend cultural ideas of gender, because these cultural
ones are completely inadequate in the situation. I am wondering
if shamanic lore can help me here, but it seems a bit confusing.
I am still at the gathering info
stage, not yet able to distill the info. I can see I am exploring
a number of different issues here.
1 Men, and what is a balanced and powerful (spiritual and otherwise)
male in reality, not what society claims it to be
2 Masculine spiritual power as opposed to feminine - what actually
is it?
3 Does a man learn spiritual things (or anything?) differently
to a woman?
4 Do you learn about spiritual masculine power in a different
way to feminine spiritual power?
Does a man learn these things in a different way to women (ie
does a man learn masculine power
differently to the way a woman learns of masculine power?)
And last but not least, where is
Northernwolf when you want him? I have an eerie feeling he has
asked all these questions before! LOL
I will add those books to the list,
Wilder
Thank you for everyone's input so
far!
Earthwalker:
Lune, I
would also read the book "Awakening Spirits by Tom Brown
Jr.
Wynsong:
Hey
Lune,
“Wynsong,
I think I understand what you are saying about beliefs proving
themselves, but this isn't a personal "belief". This
is a search as a teacher for what will work, be effective, in
a specific situation. I need to transcend cultural ideas of
gender, because these cultural ones are completely inadequate
in the situation. I am wondering if shamanic lore can help me
here, but it seems a bit confusing. I am still at the gathering
info stage, not yet able to distill the info.”
Shamanic
practice is not about gathering information, it is about experiencing
your own perception. Change your perception, and the world changes...so
it is IMHO all about the personal belief system of each individual...If
I believe, and I can assure you, I've been walking this earthwalk
with a firm belief in place of separation of masculine and feminine...then
I will see it.
And I
have and will....I can tell you from that perspective that a
man and a women do learn differently, I can tell you the Corpus
callosum differences between a male and female makes a huge
difference in how one sex processes incoming sensory input compared
to the other...(Anatomy)...I can tell you that physiologically
the hormone differences create a huge difference between how
a female processes information compared to a male.... and causes
a female’s processing to change over her lifetime...
And all
that stuff is in the literal world...the mundane...the physical...
For me to get past that, I'm going to have to let go of all
I "know" about the differences of male and female,
masculine and feminine in the mundane/ literal and in the symbolic
worlds I have safely inhabited for the last 50+ years, and experience
masculine and feminine in the energetic, at the very least in
the mythic... I can't tell you how to do it, I'm working on
that part of my journey now....I can't tell you it is a correct
path to follow, as I'm in the process of experiencing it...But
that is the essence of the Shamanic experience, as I understand
it...to alter/question the belief system you have in place that
keeps you where you already are, and then go out and experience
the world (the mundane) anew...
The way
Shamanic traditions I know help a person to shift their perception
is through Rites or Trials or Ceremony. From a teaching stand
point, I needed to experience the Wheel and Ceremonies and Rites
and live it....and now I am going back to the Wheel to assist
in how those who 'taught'/facilitated my process, did it. There
I hope to experience my process again, from a different perceptual
level, so that I can open up to ways I can help others do it,
from where they are standing on their own path, if they wish
to make a change/walk a new way.
I am
a baby on this particular path.... but I'm crawling off to the
experience on April 1st...so I will let you know if I have any
more practical insights when I get back...I do know one thing
though, they always have both male and female facilitators at
all the classes.
Munay
chi
Jimmy WhiteBear:
Hi
Lune,
The
questions you ask are what makes Spirituality private and personal.
For me, they are not appropriate questions to ask.
When
we share our spirituality with each other that is one thing,
to ask someone what their spirituality is or how they acquired
it is considered Invasion.
Read
some of the books that have been suggested. Awakening spirits
is a very good book to find your own answers over time.
Respectfully,
Bear
WilderWitch:
hmm- I
found Awakening Spirits to be a little too a-b-c but maybe that's
exactly what you are looking for- ok- I am a woman- but I am
finding my way through understanding the masculine energy within
me (I don't mind talking about this because while it is a very
personal journey- sometimes getting a nudge in the right direction
REALLY helps- and maybe by sharing something that has happened
within me- Lune can get a nudge- from wherever it comes from)-
First off I know that I have a ton of extra testosterone in
my system- doesn't really matter too much- but in "knowing"
that myself- it makes it easier to "know that" there
IS two different rivers of energy that pass along inside-So
if you are trying to find your own male side- I would hmmm ok-
I learned this through martial arts and my Craft- but there
are two different energies- one swirls- which I associate with
the feminine- (chaos) and one is like little itty bitty lines
like a dash ( - ) they move so quickly you can’t see them
unless you go into trance or what I refer to as "re-focusing."
For me the martial arts really showed me the masculine side
"of" myself-but something that might help even more
is that- when you are studying shamanism- go with what is coming-
not with where you THINK you should go- because these answers
will come when you are supposed to receive them-If you move
ON to DOING some exercises which you would read in some of these
books- then it will naturally help you find the answers- There
might be a different question to answer before this one that
will make the answer to this one make sense- and until you discover
that question- then THIS question will just keep you running
around. So maybe try a couple of books- get the journey down
this path going for you- and what you need will become apparent
to you-See?
I don't know how
to help you tap into the masculine "for" you- because
I could only find it for myself-Try the sweat lodge thing-The
way I did that- though I am a woman- is that- I turned on my
radio with a tape of drums going- went into the smallest bathroom
and ran really hot, hot, water- plug it so you don't waste it-
Much like you'd sit with a sick child to loosen up a cold or
coughing-Then inside there- to get the sweat going- stomp and
dance to the drums-That would be a sweat lodge- even with the
dancing- (because inside a real lodge there would be steam hence
no need to dance-). These are my suggestions anyway-
CinnamonMoon:
Lune~The article on Variances
Between Men’s And Women’s Medicine may help you understand
a little more. Basically the feminine sacrifice is one that
is natural...menses and childbearing (whether we actually have
children or not, we're 'equipped to' ). Men need to physically
experience suffrage to understand it. The blood/sweat is the
sacrifice for enlightenment. Where men need to quest through
physical endurance up to 16 times in their life (Lakota tradition),
the woman's quest is monthly throughout her life...her sacrifice
is herself. She 'can' opt to do more but it is not required
of her where it is required of a man. A man can do this monthly
too if he chooses to enter the Sweat Lodge, but the Vision Quest
is the ultimate and it often includes the Sundance (piercing).
Women pierce too...but they tend to do that with skin cuttings.
(I'm addressing Native tradition here.). Hope this helps and
the article too.
StarBearWalking:
On a
lighter note, do we ever understand the other sex? LOL
Earthwalker:
Lune, two
others books which I found interesting was "Going Native"
by Tom Harmer and "Crossing into Medicine Country"
by David Carson. These represent personal stories but don't
discuss techniques.
Still I like the
contrast between the directness of men’s medicine and the
soft ways of individuals like Jamie Sams and Cinnamon.
Lune:
First, Bear, I am horrified
if you found my questions an invasion. It was not my intention
at all. I don't understand, then, the line between discussion
and invasion between you and I, however I respect that you feel
that way. Sorry.
Next, Wynsong "Shamanic practice
is not about gathering information, it is about experiencing
your own perception." Yes, of course. But to imply gathering
information is missing the point is very wrong in my case. My
learning style is to go and gather as much info as I can get
my hands on, till that information crystalizes into understanding
of what I (usually) have been experiencing all along. Arguably
I am experiencing the role of a teacher who has been put on
the spot! but in the situation of teacher to jump in and "go
with it" and experience, is only appropriate to a point.
After that it is irresponsible. Anything you care to share about
teaching, I am all ears. I have been teaching shamanism for
13 years, and have not come across a situation entirely like
this before. But I do know what is and is not effective teaching.
I have the option of sending this student on, but we have discussed
this, and both feel I can help him in many ways. So for the
moment we have mutually agreed to see where our combined journey
takes us.
The gender thing is very important,
for exactly the reasons about belief you outlined. This person
is part-aboriginal, and instead of gender roles in spirituality
being a thing you read about it books, it is a real and very
important part of aboriginal culture. Almost without exception
the only men I know who truly walk within their power are some
of the aboriginal men who have been properly initiated, or white-black
fellas of the same. And they are precious few and far between.
My student's family has lost their
cultural heritage to the point he has no elders to go and study
with. And sending him to the elders of another aboriginal nation
with their culture still fairly whole, would be as relevant
as sending him to study under a Native American elder. Any books
out there on Aboriginal spirituality are either lightweight
for the new-agey wanting to tap into the noble-savage market,
or are incomplete, with the guts of the spirituality left out
(Bear might identify with that one!!! It would be insensitive
for me to know or want to know aboriginal cultural information
like that. See, I understand that issue here on my own ground,
Bear!) So he strives to find it solely within him, somehow -
"experience the world (the mundane) anew". Fortunately
he and I both have extremely good guidance. But, as a teacher,
I know there are always ways I can be better, more effective.
Wilder, thanks for your insight
into how you see two different forms of energy. However, I am
not trying to get in touch with my own masculine side. Of course,
I understand the need to find the answers, let the come, whatever.
But I didn't post a question about how to find my own answers,
I was asking if anyone had any info or books etc. on this subject.
And as for sweat lodges, I am sure you didn't realize, but they
are culturally and environmentally totally inappropriate for
my homeland.
Cinn, I went through the library
and got the Variances one and anything else that looked relevant
the other day, thanks! Hey, what I am wondering is.... My understanding
of woman's magic, e.g., the woman's layer of the medicine wheel
of Maiden, Mother Crone, Warrioress, Goddess, plus all the other
things, as a framework for understanding that power in me was
brilliant. Now, is men's medicine directly mirroring. i.e.,
do I send said student on a boy/father/grandfather journey,
and it will help him understand those aspects? or is the male
framework simply a completely different framework? Considering
there isn't one universal woman's magic framework, I am not
presuming there is a universal male one! LOL. But I guess the
essence of the question is can I take my woman's magic framework
of understanding and mirror it and it do the job? Or is there
something I am missing if I do that? or am I barking up the
wrong tree entirely? Any ideas?
Suffering: you seem to be saying
that we need to suffer in some way to connect with spirit. Women
do it every month, men need some other way. But why the presumption
that we need to suffer to connect?
Again, thank you for the reading
suggestions everyone. And Starbear, good point! *grins* And
that is exactly why I am asking about it LOL
Jimmy WhiteBear:
Morning
Lune, I am sorry if you find that horrific. Much of what I believe
is personal to me and can only be shared in generality. There
is much on the bookshelves that has been shared. For quite some
time, I asked for proof of the creator, to understand what spirituality
was and when it came it was something I had to process. I really
think the big difference in spirituality is how we find it,
not so much what it is. Because it means something to each and
all of us differently. What I can tell you is this, I was 100%
spiritually bankrupt when I found my path and it was the water
spirits that showed me the way. As far as an invasion, ask a
very humble elder about spirituality and see what they say!...
Didn't mean to offend anyone but I speak my heart.
Wynsong:
Hey
Lune, “I have the option of sending this student on, but
we have discussed this, and both feel I can help him in many
ways. So for the moment we have mutually agreed to see where
our combined journey takes us.”
This
jumped out at me as I was reading your response...It started
out about how you can help him...and moved to combined journeys
taking both of you...Your combined journey...mutual learning...co-learning...and
I wondered what he might be staying in the mentoring relationship
to teach you? Which sent me back to this...
“Arguably
I am experiencing the role of a teacher who has been put on
the spot! but in the situation of teacher to jump in and "go
with it" and experience, is only appropriate to a point.
After that it is irresponsible.”
What
are your beliefs about what a teacher is supposed to appropriately
do? What is your job in the relationship? You know Lune, I think
you and I may be walking a very similar path... I will inbox
you.
Munay
chi
CinnamonMoon:
Lune~Sweetie, There is an
article titled: “Men In Balance” in this section of
the library that may be of help to you. I want to say first
off that women connect internally, men connect externally. Women
project that connection into the world, men take from the world
and bring it within themselves. We work from polar opposites...in
a generalized way. Men need to explore and experience to understand
things, women have the understanding they take into experiences
to explore. We come from two different approaches to arrive
at the same conclusions. When I studied Men's Medicine Ways
I was going nuts. It seemed to me to be the longest way around
to get to the point. I would follow the journeys they took,
watch them go through all this discovery only to end up with
an answer I'd seen long before that. So it seemed to me they
really did go through a lot to get there and it really left
me feeling extremely frustrated until I came to understand why...it's
their way of investing themselves to the point of valuing what
they learn. A woman values what she feels and invests herself
to release it into the world. We, as women, have the womb, we
are connected to creation through that already. And because
of that it is said no more is asked of women because they suffer
to give birth. Men on the otherhand are asked to protect that
which the woman brings forth continuously. Now I'm relating
this to family, but it applies to everything. Men invent and
make the mechanics of life, but women bring forth their creation
of a living form. There's a difference. Men can only create
with their hands, women create with their bodies.
“Hey, what I am wondering is....
My understanding of woman's magic, e.g., the woman's layer of
the medicine wheel of Maiden, Mother Crone, Warrioress, Goddess,
plus all the other things, as a framework for understanding
that power in me was brilliant. Now, is men's medicine directly
mirroring. i.e., do I send said student on a boy/father/grandfather
journey, and it will help him understand those aspects?”
Nods, that's one approach certainly and it is in keeping with
Men's Medicine Ways, yes. I would do that as an exercise and
expect a good year of exploration with it along with the other
teachings. He needs to explore and comprehend each rite of passage
to understand himself and his abilities. In a sense it's going
to be a regression and an exploration externally at the same
time. As he goes seeking he will connect his own past experiences
and see where they tie in. My bet would be he understands a
lot of that already, just not in the spiritual context. To love
the Land and hear it's voice one must connect. A woman can connect
sitting on it. A man has to explore it to know it. Women naturally
journey spiritually, it's in their nature, a man must learn
to do that and he begins in the physical sense.
“…or is the male framework
simply a completely different framework? Considering there isn't
one universal woman's magic framework, I am not presuming there
is a universal male one! LOL.”
I'd say it's the polar opposite of
a woman's and that in generalization (as I'm doing here) that
there is a universal precept to it. While there are variations
throughout all traditions it's the basics that are universal
and the variances come into play with the rituals and ceremonies
that are produced to come to those basic understandings. What
I may do to reach my enlightenment is going to vary from what
you do, but it's basically the same type of steps taken. You
see?
“But I guess the essence of the
question is can I take my woman's magic framework of understanding
and mirror it and it do the job? Or is there something I am
missing if I do that? or am I barking up the wrong tree entirely?
Any ideas?”
Yes, but you need to mirror the opposites
to him...instead of taking the receptive information that is
internal you have to send him out into the world to find it.
He has to take on an active search....has to hunt. So if he
has no family heritage to seek out then he needs to find someone
who holds it...someone from his Aboriginal tribal tradition
that will share with him. You've said these individuals are
few and far between, and that is often the case. However....find
one and he will know another. A man learning from a woman will
come at things backwards for
his way of thinking and vs/vs. but
it is a journey both of you are taking together and it will
bring you both lessons along the way. Sometimes as a teacher
our task is to help someone find the teacher that's right for
them, not just send them away because we don't have the answers.
Sometimes it's meant for us to find them alongside the student...which
is seemingly what this is about for you...you're searching too.
This is typical of the role of teacher...the student gives us
as much back in this as we learn too and the student becomes
our teacher because of that. Actually, the searching you're
doing here reflects Men's Medicine....the hunting for the answer
is a physical task that must accompany the questor's efforts.
The difference being that for women that's a more passive process
where for men it becomes physical exertion.
“Suffering: you seem to be saying
that we need to suffer in some way to connect with spirit. Women
do it every month, men need some other way. But why the presumption
that we need to suffer to connect?”
It's a voluntary suffering a willing
sacrifice to dedicate oneself to Spirit and the enlightenment.
Don't tell me you haven't suffered to learn what you've learned
over the years. I know better. I've suffered plenty to earn
my knowledge too. Through experience we value and the more difficult
that experience is. the more we value what we learned. Suffering
is part of life, Lune, we all go through our challenges and
pain to grow. Spiritually speaking vision questing is a suffrage,
you deprive yourself of companionship, of food and creature
comforts, of everything but the bare essentials to get back
to the center of Self with Spirit. You isolate, you make sacrifice,
you make an offering of yourself. It is a total surrender...willing
surrender, willing to suffer to do so. To give birth a woman
suffers through her body as it distorts to make room for the
developing child. She suffers the carriage of that child and
awkwardness of pregnancy, the emotional swings, the hormonal
changes, she undergoes physical transformation and then come
the pangs of labor that turn her inside out to give that baby
life. Her changes are internal.
To protect a man suffers through
his body the wounding of the warrior, it's physical exertion
on an external level. There's your generality...women come from
internal perspectives, from the heart; men come from external
perspectives and logic...the common ground between them is the
end result.
A man will be turning himself inside
out to be that warrior, and both have to find courage and strength
to endure. That suffering is a fact of life. We have to be willing
to undergo whatever it takes for us to come to that enlightenment,
to that manifesting of form, to the rigors of dedication it
takes to see things through. Yes, we suffer, if we look we will
see that everyone, man or woman, suffers in some way. It's part
of life.
We can become enlightened without
suffering too, we can take the gentle path to discovery through
working with guidance and journeys. There's a bit of both in
our journeys, but when the physical aspects come into play,
and when we have to take the spiritual through us to bring it
into the mundane there's going to be physical activity, emotional
aspects, and some suffering involved. We have to give of ourselves
to get something in exchange. Naturally Spirit always gives
back more than we expect and we find we've grown and not lost
anything that we needed in the first place but there are times
it wounds us to discover that.
A man will have battle scars, physical
traces of the protection he's offered in some way. A woman will
have hers too. The spiritual warrior/warrioress in us will suffer
wounds, heal, and grow stronger with conviction...and with that
comes the skill and wisdom we seek. There are differences, no
matter how badly we seek to understand the other gender, or
to align genders within ourselves, there are differences and
it takes the understanding of both to achieve the balance that
brings these things into balance. Hope that helps you a little
my friend.
As to specific masculine lessons
one needs to understand Men's Medicine, it will depend on the
cultural tradition. In your case it's going to call for you
to find an Aboriginal teacher...few and far between but you
do know a few and they know others...you need to begin your
search approaching them to find out what your friend needs to
learn. With that you'll learn about it too and the next time
someone comes to you with needs along these lines you'll know
the pattern to walk them through.
Marila:
...just a
short aspect: If you are gifted to learn from a shaman who is
gifted not to hold a "normal" gender role or who is
gifted with both male and female aspects (so called hermaphrodite)
you might experience male/female teachings in balance. You might
be gifted with a sight that helps to balance these aspects in
you, too. In many countries these shamans are very honored.
In my life I was gifted
to learn from many people who did not hold the "normal"
gender roles - also from hermaphrodite shaman. This way I cannot
share about male-female learning - as I did not experience this
kind of learning, but a kind of balanced learning this way from
the people and teachers I met - or better: we met...Just some
notes from here... (If I find an article (I was looking for
a special one) about the shamans in these special gender roles
- I will give you the link. Up to now I could not find the information
again in the internet...)
Much Love to you all...
WilderWitch:
ok guess
I misunderstood the question-the sweat lodge thing I was suggesting
was by yourself- but if that is inappropriate for your home
then again I apologize-
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Libraries
are on this row
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INDEX
Page 3
(Main Section, Medicine Wheel, Native Languages &
Nations, Symbology)
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INDEX
Page 5
(Sacred Feminine & Masculine, Stones & Minerals)
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©
Copyright: Cinnamon Moon & River WildFire Moon (Founders.)
2000-date
All rights reserved.
Site
constructed by Dragonfly
Dezignz 1998-date
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