SPIRIT        LODGE   LIBRARY Sacred Feminine & Sacred Masculine Page 31 part 1

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The 36 pages in this Sacred Feminine & Sacred Masculine section are below.

Abomination Or Denial Of The Unbalanced Spirit	Athena	Athena/Artemis — Hecate?	Castaneda	Feminine Gender Burden Basket	Finding a Way to Live a Healed & Healthy Masculine	Gratitude	Healed Wounded Masculine Leaders	Healing From the Anger of Abuse
Initiating to the Feminine	Is Balance Obtainable or is it Illusion	Living Your Warrior Woman	Maiden, Mother, Crone	Male Gender Burden Basket	Mary Magdaline Discussion	Masculine Rite of Passage	Masculine Spirituality Request for Information	Maternal Instinct
Men in Balance	Mother Earth	One Flaw in Women	Sacred Masculine Energy	Seeing Through Soft Eyes	Speaking the Truth	Spirit Lights	Stepping Out of the Shadows	The Fisher King
The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths & Secrets	Variances Between Male & Female Medicine	Warrior Societies	Warrior Women - 2 pages	What Balance Is or Means to Me	What Spiritual Activities Do You Consider Masculine?	What Was Your First Indicator of What You Would Become?	Womb With A View	Woman Depression & Anger

Warrior Women
By WhiteCrow

Cinn and I were discussing something else and it triggered the topic of bravery and battle from the feminine perspective. I'm thinking it would make a great topic to discuss, since it seems to be an issue of womanhood that is often misunderstood or even suppressed. How many women have been told they were being unfeminine when they were merely being assertive? How many woman have put up with abuse because they felt being female equated to being submissive? How many women realize that a strong balanced feminine image includes the warrior aspect?

Nature is quite happy with the concept of the warrior huntress female. In lion society it is the females who hunt and provide and the males who protect the family. In chimpanzees the leader is male, but he is chosen by the dominant females. From ancient artifacts and the oldest religions, we can see how the female was once revered in all her forms, but many of the more modern religions seem sadly lacking in healthy female role models.

Even our children's role models have tended to be skewed. Cinderella? Who gets the prince because she's so sweet and meek she's basically a walking doormat. How many strong assertive female fairytale characters can you think of? Thank heavens for Shrek and Princess Fiona, who are helping to balance that out. Being meek and submissive tends to be held up as being the perfect woman and being strong as somehow being less feminine and less desirable. Think of the words used to describe assertive women and then list them against the words used to describe assertive men. How many of the words in each list were positive or negative? I'm betting there were more negatives on the female side.

How do you, as a woman, feel about the warrior side of yourself? How do you express this aspect of the feminine and how do you feel about that?

CinnamonMoon:
Wow! Déjà vu, Crow! Have we had this conversation here at the Lodge before? Off the top of my head (and before I've finished my coffee ) I'm going to begin with the adage where it is said that the Battle of the Ages is Within, the battle with the Self. I have to agree with that because when I first came to know the warrioress within it was a bit of a shock. That would come later in life as I came to understand the archetypal and spiritual aspects. Initially I explored unaware growing up as it came forward at times to do battle with my siblings. We were like little cubs practicing for life unaware and we squabbled now and then when things got carried away. Sometimes the emotional side took over and primal instincts we didn't understand kicked in so we got mean with one and other as children do.

As I grew the warrioress was felt when I became upset about things but I tended to push it back having been conditioned to be submissive, lady-like, and I held only the mundane perspective of proper behavior back then. I did not understand the essence fully on spiritual levels until well into my later teens when I became enthralled with the Greco-Roman myths. From there I began to look into Celtic and Norse lore and that led to the English myths, Amazonian myths and eventually Native/shamanic lore. I'd been exposed to both the feminine and masculine roles this way. As I came into shamanic study and was drawn to totemic teachings the warrior-warrioress became an androgynous concept as I hadn't dominantly focused on one or the other but was adaptive to what was being learned.

I didn't care for that side of myself growing up, it felt embarrassing when it came out because it was untamed and primal. I like it today having honed it and come to understanding through experience. I think it suits me better now as I give it room to BE where I used to feel ashamed of it being so un-lady-like. In the past it was another isolated aspect of self, today it has become integrated. The integration of the warrioress within was a long and difficult journey through the years however. Perhaps because of social norms for women in general combined with the environment I was reared in (influenced by a strong mother and Victorian Grandmother).

The challenges later came through abusive situations based around that conditioning. I was naive in believing I had to submit. There were physical beatings and rapes, mental, emotional and spiritual abuse that came through failed relationships with dysfunctionally dominant male partners in my early adulthood. I know now that my passivity made me vulnerable to them. It took a lot to bring it into consciousness and learn to hone that side of myself. There were many challenges that called for the warrioress to arise in self-defense. Over and over that happened because I was so resistant and submissive back then.

It's an interesting topic you've raised Crow, and interesting questions too. My mother was a strong woman who challenged me at every turn and I resented that deeply growing up. I wanted the nurturing feminine side of her but it was superficially there in my eyes. There was always more I could have done or it could have been done better, or I was falling short of approval in some manner. I know now she was using negative reinforcement and perhaps that's one reason I still find that distasteful. At the time it felt very cruel and predatory to me. These things were pointed out to me as shortcomings constantly and eating away at my self-esteem, my self-confidence and the devaluing of self to the point of feeling beaten down into submission as a way to cope. I began looking for opportunities to escape. That became repressed anger and was expressed in passive aggressive behaviors for some time. It also created a victim mentality for a long time until I hit saturation.

I began to set out to prove these things weren't so at the saturation point---to myself mainly. I needed to know who I truly was and what it would take to become independent which meant at times that I had to stand up and fight back. My tolerance for pain had grown in all that but I didn't see it that way at first. I had the need within to conduct myself in a way that was controlled, not primal, I guess you could say that was born of the need to find my self-respect. I needed to like who I was so I had to learn to turn the primal urges that would surge through me into something positive. I was seeking self-approval in the way I responded to situations, circumstances and individuals that were confrontational. I didn't always like my behavior when it came to emotional responsiveness, that's where I found most of my weaknesses revealing themselves, you know, the impulsiveness of emotional knee-jerk reactions and things that resulted in regret more often than not. So I began standing up for myself and when I did I felt my power surging in a new and positive way. The results were quite satisfactory too.

Initially I'd say I express the warrioress aspect of the Sacred Feminine today by walking in confidence and conviction along with the 3-I's. By bringing it forth when needed, having learned from the past, I am aware of what I'm capable of now and how I want to conduct myself in the future. I'm not inclined to get into physical altercations so there would be no expression in that manner other than the carriage of my posture. Perhaps that would be seen in the sense of Wolf Medicine and posturing learned through pack lessons. It would show in the way I walk my path perhaps as Cougar Medicine and walking as I see fit, walking my talk to honor the path regardless of what others might think. That was a tough lesson too because I was raised to care about what other's perceived. Perhaps it would show as Black Panther Medicine to guard sacred space, or the Wolf Pack to do the same as territorial lessons and boundary lines were explored early on. And perhaps as Badger coming into play too should I need to do battle on some front where trouble arose suddenly or unexpectedly as an intrusion.

All these and other aspects of Self have been integrated into a unified state of BE-ing these days so it's hard to define any one side of my nature. I feel more like an amalgam but I'm sure you get the idea here. All of my totemic aspects have their primal attributes and they can all be summoned forth as needed. I will not hesitate to do so if the situation should call for that and I know which to bring forth to suit different circumstances. Sometimes they arise on their own and I would have to analyze my actions in relation to the situation on hindsight to say which would be which, I just respond. I've studied totemic teachings on so many levels for so many years that I'd have to say that's my main learning arena for the warrioress though there have been others that contributed along the way too. One of the first things I look for in understanding the totemic nature is the predator-prey within as it relates to my own nature and interactions with others. I do that because it allows me to understand the Contrary as well as positive side of myself. If I can be aware of my strengths and weaknesses then I can bring them into balance on a conscious level.

The huntress aspects seem to compliment those of the warrioress too and were pretty much honed simultaneously. Since I walk a shamanic path to begin with the teachings have come down to me this way. It was a natural fashioning to hone those many skills that serve me well….ways I feel are going to demonstrate what I would consider personally appropriate behavior. In looking back over the years I grew into them as I grew into my maturity and adulthood on a conscious mundane level but it was by trial and error for a long time. I messed up a lot at first, good old Coyote! I do like to be in control of myself, to be able to stand my ground if need be, to protect my sacred space and loved ones when it's called for, but I try very hard not to intrude on the space of others and respect their right to do the same.

I would say I do not otherwise use this side of my nature in an aggressive way other than loving a good verbal debate now and then as intellectually I will pounce right into those. (It's mainly Big Cat Medicine and curiosity to explore at play and the predatory raptors as well as Raven for spiritual seeking.) By the length of my replies to people here at the Lodge I guess that's pretty obvious. Ha! Intellectually the warrioress is going to be there, the huntress too as the two often walk together. I'd say I apply both mainly in the seeking I do on personal levels and in business.

Physically it's not going to show much other than for my carriage…though to protect someone I care about or in self-defense it's there instantly. I've faced fatal situations before and stood my ground well. One such example would be when someone tried to break into my home mistaking it for someone else. They pointed a gun at my head threatening my life pushing their way through the door. But when it came to my child I refused to allow them anywhere near her. I didn't' think twice about it and Bear came forward, they left without further threat so it must have been obvious to them that they'd crashed the wrong door. I've fought off abusive partners that wanted to beat me into submission and at times it was Armadillo or Turtle that taught me about retreat for survival. It's important to know when retreat is good strategy too. *Soft smile* And spiritually I've done battle as well wherein my spirit came forward to take control of the situations and the human side of me took on the role of Witness. That's where I learned how capable I was. The first time it happened was one that left me in awe and left its mark too.

Emotionally I'd say it's going to come forward through Deer, Bear and Badger mainly to nurture, delve, heal, or to break through fears and blockages. Knowing where my strengths and weaknesses are and how to compensate for them I'd say it shows spiritually through the knowledge, understanding and wisdom to pick my battles and apply myself with whatever traits are called for in ways that serve best in the moment. I certainly wouldn't say I go looking for situations where the warrioress needs to be dominant but I have no problem when they arise either. I know who I am, what I'm made of, where I'm honed and where it is best to retreat from a battle. It's been a lifetime of learning though, and for the past ten years or so I've been focused on balancing the feminine and masculine within myself which certainly included the warrioress-warrior balancing. I feel I've finally completed that process of unification, at least in the sense of where I'm at today and the assimilations have been quite intense. It's certainly a focus I hold moving forward but balanced with the totality of self, not as a separate or dominant faction.

Wow, I didn't think I'd have so much to share on the subject.

MonSnoLeeDra:
I think parts of your position are based upon faulty analysis. One who walks the warrior path leads through inspiration and their ability to inspire. Assertiveness means nothing, especially when it is based upon false bravado or knee jerk reactions. The women I have served with on active duty especially learn that it does not matter whether one is male or female when leading. It is all based upon one’s ability to show that their subordinates are important to them, that they will get the mission done and employ their assets in the most logical manner. That and though one may die in battle their lives are not simply thrown away on a whim. One critical factor being when the crap hits the fan they are standing there in crap too, not way behind. That and the ones I have seen that rise to the top also know how to gain the trust and respect of their peer group and their support. I'll be honest there were some I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for, others I'd lock someone’s arse in a heartbeat for not obeying them or talking them down. Some I would defer to and held in high esteem others well let’s say they may have had the stripes or bar's on their shoulders but they didn't earn it.

That and many of them gain their position and authority through actions and presence. That and knowing that the way to get even the stubborn to act and move as they desire is to not use feminine whiles but the authority and accountability that comes from their position. Traits that one sees also in other callings that maybe seen as warrior paths, i.e. firefighter, policewoman, I suppose to some extent even the political arenas. From the vantage of comparing to the animal kingdom that too is a fallacy I think. Yes the females are the hunters in the lion pride, yet you forgot to mention that the male is a wander that moves about and usually has two or more prides he stands over. The females remain in one area for the most part so it is logical they would develop a social system somewhat separate from the male. Males not acting as the alpha male typically roam in male only prides that hand on the fringe of the social system. The same placement and action is seen in many animal systems, it's seen in baboons, Deer, Dog packs, etc. To some extent even the chimpanzee. The only ape system I am aware of that is totally female based and driven is that of the Bonono's. I think to some extent even the notion of the female being revered in all her forms is a misnomer. Yes the rise of the male dominated religions definitely has slanted the field but many of the early artifacts we really have no idea what they were used for and it is a best guess.

We make an assumption of their purpose but truthfully we do not know if they were Divine, every day or simply artistic expression. The same conclusions could be reached in regards to all the honiwa figurines and such that were found in early Japanese burials and later in their pyramid period. Personally I think the need to paint a period of the Divine female and her domination is as destructive as the male oriented period we are in right now. It significantly paints a lop sided picture where I think a civilization closer to nature would actually be more balanced and aligned than we give them credit for. Yes certain attributes of each sex would be observed and perhaps honored in that capacity in ritual and such but the balance would be present I believe. Even to say there are no examples is sort of wrong to me. Yes classic stories may paint that perspective but I hardly see it in newer stories or in many of the major saga's or edda's. Yet many of the so called classic are from a narrow point in history and its influence.

Turn on nearly any Disney show today and there is a strong female character. Look to many movies and there is the strong female position and character. The problem lies in the notion that many soap operas and such to my opinion paint the strong woman as more manipulative than actually being strong in person and character. That manipulation is why they are seen as less desirable and needed for they gain not by ability but ability to exploit and manipulate others. That trait whether used by male or female is seen as not desired outwardly. Inwardly, I would be a liar to say it is not a desired trait at times. I think to use your list of attributes one must look to see how they are used in identification. Many of the warrior and strong women I know are given the same trait listings as the men they serve with. Many of them also use all the abilities they possess which I think further separates

them, passive is a powerful tool when employed correctly. Strength is a powerful weight about the neck when employed incorrectly.

CinnamonMoon:
“I think parts of your position are based upon faulty analysis.”

Really? Or is that through a faulty perspective limiting the 'warrioress' role to the military arena? It is found in many places MonSnoLeeDra, not just in the battlefield. A warrioress may be part of a group in some fashion or she may be walking a very solitary life. She may have turned mercenary or missionary or mother so IMHO it depends on the arena she is standing in at any given moment as to how she brings those aspects of herself forward.

“One who walks the warrior path leads through inspiration and their ability to inspire. Assertiveness means nothing, especially when it is based upon false bravado or knee jerk reactions. The women I have served with on active duty especially learn that it does not matter whether one is male or female when leading. It is all based upon one’s ability to show that their subordinates are important to them, that they will get the mission done and employ their assets in the most logical manner. That and though one may die in battle their lives are not simply thrown away on a whim. One critical factor being when the crap hits the fan they are standing there in crap too, not way behind. That and the ones I have seen that rise to the top also know how to gain the trust and respect of their peer group and their support.”

The same can be said about a single mother or a young woman who's been orphaned and learning to stand on her own. If we have role models to teach these things that's wonderful but that's not always the case. Sometimes we find them in ourselves through trial and error, sometimes woven into the myths we come to know. The warrioress can appear anywhere at any time.

“I'll be honest there were some I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for, others I'd lock someone’s arse in a heartbeat for not obeying them or talking them down. Some I would defer to and held in high esteem others well let’s say they may have had the stripes or bar's on their shoulders but they didn't earn it.”

Couldn't as much be said of any individual anywhere?

“That and many of them gain their position and authority through actions and presence. That and knowing that the way to get even the stubborn to act and move as they desire is to not use feminine whiles but the authority and accountability that comes from their position. Traits that one sees also in other callings that maybe seen as warrior paths, i.e. firefighter, policewoman, I suppose to some extent even the political arenas.”

If the warrioress is to take a position of authority over others that may well apply. But on personal levels and within self-discovery the authority is with the Self, not others. There are physical as well as spiritual aspects to this and the warrioress is present in both. It is the spirit of the warrioress that is addressed in whatever form she may physically be taking on. Others may follow once that's discovered, or they may come into the mix along the way (perhaps she has children as her charges), but we're addressing the discovery of the warrioress and her role on personal levels here as much as out in the world itself.

“From the vantage of comparing to the animal kingdom that too is a fallacy I think.”

And I would have to totally disagree with you since I've learned much from the animals I walk with in light of all this.

“Yes the females are the hunters in the lion pride, yet you forgot to mention that the male is a wanderer that moves about and usually has two or more prides he stands over. The females remain in one area for the most part so it is logical they would develop a social system somewhat separate from the male. Males not acting as the alpha male typically roam in male only prides that hang on the fringe of the social system. The same placement and action is seen in many animal systems, it's seen in baboons, Deer, Dog packs, etc. To some extent even the chimpanzee. The only ape system I am aware of that is totally female based and driven is that of the Bonono's.”

In light of this discussion, and while acknowledging the balance of the masculine and feminine within us, to understand the warrioress the feminine needs to be the focus. From there the masculine roles can come into play. You will find in nature that certain species will for instance push the male aside in raising their young wherein the female takes on that responsibility fully. They will not allow a male near their young and they will take on the role of protector, nurturer, provider, healer, whatever the case may be. Such species when studied can teach a single mother a great deal about fighting the battles of life, or the solitary woman herself. There are many types of battles, many skirmishes fought, and many locations for battlefields where a woman can find herself on her own. I found myself on the battlefield of physical abuse, another was rape, another and another and another throughout life. I’m not going to detail them further, I am not their victim. I became a warrioress though and I fought my way back from victimization…mine and that others would have put upon me. So I know what it is to push through fear, to dig for courage and strength in the face of fierce opposition. I know what it is to run for shelter, an infant in my arms, barefoot through the snow in winter. A warrior arose within me to protect and defend through withdrawal. I did what I had to do. I know what it is to summon her. I’ve summoned her for mental, emotional, physical and for spiritual abuse. Challenges came at me left and right and I met them. It wasn’t easy but I faced them. I did not go to war as you did but I did go to war.

“I think to some extent even the notion of the female being revered in all her forms is a misnomer.”

I disagree. Whether that reverence is coming from religion, myth, society or some other place of origin, the aspects of woman are being addressed in one form or another. They do exist. It may be that you would have to be a woman to understand that, perhaps not, but for a woman they need to be recognized. We are all those things and more.

“Yes the rise of the male dominated religions definitely has slanted the field but many of the early artifacts we really have no idea what they were used for and it is a best guess. We make an assumption of their purpose but truthfully we do not know if they were Divine, every day or simply artistic expression. The same conclusions could be reached in regards to all the honiwa figurines and such that were found in early Japanese burials and later in their pyramid period.”

True, yet it does not matter. The fact is that they are present among women in the first place and deserve to be understood in context of the individual as those attributes would be applied. These are the mysteries of women.

“Personally I think the need to paint a period of the Divine female and her domination is as destructive as the male oriented period we are in right now. It significantly paints a lop sided picture where I think a civilization closer to nature would actually be more balanced and aligned than we give them credit for. Yes certain attributes of each sex would be observed and perhaps honored in that capacity in ritual and such but the balance would be present I believe.”

I agree. And I believe that we are passing through a period in history where that balance is being sought. However it begins and is found first within each of us. From there it is taken out into the world and applied. Until that process has had sufficient time to evolve we're not going to witness it manifested. If we stand looking for it today we can see it coming into being, it has been doing so for quite some time.

“Even to say there are no examples is sort of wrong to me. Yes classic stories may paint that perspective but I hardly see it in newer stories or in many of the major saga's or edda's. Yet many of the so called classic are from a narrow point in history and its influence.....Turn on nearly any Disney show today and there is a strong female character. Look to many movies and there is the strong female position and character. The problem lies in the notion that many soap operas and such to my opinion paint the strong woman as more manipulative than actually being strong in person and character. That manipulation is why they are seen as less desirable and needed for they gain not by ability but ability to exploit and manipulate others.”

I would agree on the surface with what you say. Below the surface the manipulative individual would show to me as someone self-absorbed with their ego wherein the heroic individual would be coming from a higher purpose. In either case the dark side and light side of the warrioress is present.

“That trait whether used by male or female is seen as not desired outwardly. Inwardly, I would be a liar to say it is not a desired trait at times.”

I think there are times that call for seductive weaving. The intent behind it determines if it is manipulative or not.

“I think to use your list of attributes one must look to see how they are used in identification. Many of the warrior and strong women I know are given the same trait listings as the men they serve with. Many of them also use all the abilities they possess which I think further separates them, passive is a powerful tool when employed correctly. Strength is a powerful weight about the neck when employed incorrectly.”

Absolutely. And for each woman those attributes are identified in a purely subjective way. Until we understand how we relate to them personally, what changes we need to make in ourselves to manifest the best of those attributes, to hone, strengthen, or tame them, until that happens we cannot successfully employ them in the world around us. So the first battle, the first lessons, the first understandings must come in relation to ourselves...to the Self. As a rule of thumb, women are going to come from within to their understandings and bring those out into the world...from the feminine womb we give birth. Men, on the other hand, are going to explore through the physical world to understand and take that within themselves. Perhaps this is where we butt heads at times, I think it is, but at the same time we come from these different perspectives starting out and end up in the center of the understanding having learned about them in ways that we could grasp. It's all good.

WhiteCrow:
Hi MSLD, “I think parts of your position are based upon faulty analysis.”

That's ok. I think the same of some of yours. For example: “From the vantage of comparing to the animal kingdom that too is a fallacy I think. Yes the females are the hunters in the lion pride, yet you forgot to mention that the male is a wanderer that moves about and usually has two or more prides he stands over.”

I wasn't mentioning lions as proving females wandered or males wandered. I was using lions to prove females hunted while males did not hunt. So no, it's not a fallacy, nor irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. And modern studies (2007) have shown that chimpanzee groups are run by an alpha male who is chosen by the alpha females. If they don't like him - he is killed by the group and a new alpha male is chosen. But the point isn't a scoring contest of how many animal societies are run by females or males. The point is that Nature has no problem with strong females, whereas some human societies do.

“I think to some extent even the notion of the female being revered in all her forms is a misnomer.”

Well, I was thinking of my Hindu friend who worships the Old Mother there.

“Yes the rise of the male dominated religions definitely has slanted the field but many of the early artifacts we really have no idea what they were used for and it is a best guess. We make an assumption of their purpose but truthfully we do not know if they were Divine, every day or simply artistic expression.

Fair enough.

“Personally I think the need to paint a period of the Divine female and her domination is as destructive as the male oriented period we are in right now. It significantly paints a lop sided picture where I think a civilization closer to nature would actually be more balanced and aligned than we give them credit for. Yes certain attributes of each sex would be observed and perhaps honored in that capacity in ritual and such but the balance would be present I believe.”

And that is exactly the point I was making - that both sexes need to claim their full balanced selves. Women being warriors is as perfectly balanced as men being nurturing and yet both sides either struggle to claim this aspect of themselves or find that society doesn't approve of them when they claim it. In this case I'm particularly meaning the woman warrior aspect.

“Even to say there are no examples is sort of wrong to me. Yes classic stories may paint that perspective but I hardly see it in newer stories or in many of the major saga's or edda's. Yet many of the so called classic are from a narrow point in history and its influence.”

Umm... are you arguing for or against here? You lost me.

“Turn on nearly any Disney show today and there is a strong female character. Look to many movies and there is the strong female position and character. The problem lies in the notion that many soap operas and such to my opinion paint the strong woman as more manipulative than actually being strong in person and character. That manipulation is why they are seen as less desirable and needed for they gain not by ability but ability to exploit and manipulate others.”

I don't watch soaps so can't comment there, but I will say that Disney has only recently turned towards strong female characters. I grew up with Bambi, Cinderella, Jungle Book... how many strong female role models there? BUT you did point out EXACTLY my concern - that modern shows tend to portray a strong woman as a manipulative one. A negative right away.

I think to use your list of attributes one must look to see how they are used in identification. Many of the warrior and strong women I know are given the same trait listings as the men they serve with. Many of them also use all the abilities they possess which I think further separates them, passive is a powerful tool when employed correctly.

You seem to be seeing assertive in a different way to what I was meaning.

To use an example - Assertive to me is the ability to say, "no" and be heard and respected for it. I don't have to scream "NO!" I don't have to carry a gun to be brave enough to say, "No." I don't have to be angry or aggressive as I say, "No." That to me is assertive. Assertive is my one dog who would lift her ears slightly... and every other dog around her would back off in respect. She never growled or bit or barked. She just claimed her space with an ear twitch. That to me sums up the spirit of an assertive warrior woman.

And I completely disagree with your list of careers for her - a warrior woman could be a nun, a teacher, a mother or a shop attendant. Because in life we fight as many battles that are mental and emotional as we do literal physical ones.

Cinn, Wow. Awesome reply. You must dash in over coffee more often *grin*

CinnamonMoon:
LOL I’ll try.

MonSnoLeeDra:
“Or is that through a faulty perspective limiting the 'warrioress' role to the military arena”

That is highly possible I admit. I suppose I am predisposed to view the notion in that content.

“A warrioress may be part of a group in some fashion or she may be walking a very solitary life.”

True but in the sense of a warrior it would still be in the service of her skills with her chosen weapon and conflict I would think. I suppose that is one of the biggest separators for me, I see warrioress as one of conflict and battle. It probably is just the word usage for me as I see other women of power and ability in a different name light.

“The same can be said about a single mother or a young woman who's been orphaned and learning to stand on her own.”

Ah but see I would consider that as simple survival and survival of the fittest not as a component of a warrior skill set. Being male I suppose it the perspective that drives that for to me it is simply rising to the occasion and making do with what one is given.

“If we have role models to teach these things that's wonderful but that's not always the case.”

I do not disagree at all. A teacher will always be preferred over learning without the benefit of guidance.

“If the warrioress is to take a position of authority over others that may well apply. But on personal levels and within self-discovery the authority is with the self, not others.”

But I would not consider the battle within to be that of a warrior but of the struggle of knowing self. Knowing self does not to my mind make one a warrior or warrioress though it does serve across the boards in knowing oneself. I think for me the warrior battles without though they may use the trails and tribulations of within to refine and master their skill set. Yet the critical arena is the battlefield of conflict.

“Others may follow once that's discovered, or they may come into the mix along the way (perhaps she has children as her charges), but we're addressing the discovery of the warrioress and her role on personal levels here as much as out in the world itself.”

I suppose to some it is splitting hairs but in that scenario I do not see the warrioress but the protectress. Yes both may call for strength and ability but the purpose is to a different point or perspective. Even the skills and strengths are different as are the utilization of said skills. It's like a doctor or nurse in a hospital I see them as healers and protectresses not as warriors. Yes they battle upon their designated battlefields but again purpose and reason is different. In that light I believe words hold power and meaning and the usage of the purpose is what is the definer.

“You will find in nature that certain species will for instance push the male aside in raising their young wherein the female takes on that responsibility fully.”

True but many species also pass the young to the males for teaching upon reaching a certain age. I think it is part of the balance of things. Many times the male is driven out upon reaching a certain age and must learn new lessons and positions in the male only groups to find themselves and test their strengths.

“They will not allow a male near their young and they will take on the role of protector, nurturer, provider, healer, whatever the case may be. Such species when studied can teach a single mother a great deal about fighting the battles of life, or the solitary woman herself”

True but they cannot teach their offspring the traits and such of the male side of things. Yes they can speculate or speak of what they have witnessed or seen but to experience is far different than to read about or view from afar. Yes many times it can teach who to survive in their world arena but not always in the greater balanced arena of life. Sad but I think that in part it is why many are preyed upon by both sides of the species. As hunter's you seek out the weak or alone and target them, as they do not have the protection of the pack, pride or whatever name you prefer. Even in humanity one sees the weakness of an unbalanced off spring. It is seen in almost every facet of life where one must compete against their sexual peer group.

“I disagree. Whether that reverence is coming from religion, myth, society or some other place of origin, the aspects of woman are being addressed in one form or another. They do exist. It may be that you would have to be a woman to understand that, perhaps not, but for a woman they need to be recognized. We are all those things and more.”

I must concede on that one for I can only see what I am exposed to. As a male I will and can never be exposed to all facets of womanhood. Yet that then also turns to the notion of what is seen in one house versus another. Certain ceremonies will be held in private under the mantle of the elder mother, but that does not mean they would be held in public nor addressed by the totality of the society.

“I agree. And I believe that we are passing through a period in history where that balance is being sought. However it begins and is found first within each of us. From there it is taken out into the world and applied. Until that process has had sufficient time to evolve we're not going to witness it manifested. If we stand looking for it today we can see it coming into being, it has been doing so for quite some time. ”

The sad facet to my perspective is that even as it looms upon the horizon it is resisted. Not only resisted, but also resisted by persons on both sides of the event based upon their sex of birth. One cries of oppression and denounces all while the other cries of oppression and makes claims of an unprovable past. Yet any equality that might take root is plucked before it has a chance to grow in either camp. Then both camps equally attack any that might ponder upon the truth of it or heaven forbid actually try to allow it to take root and flourish and grow.

“So the first battle, the first lessons, the first understandings must come in relation to ourselves...to the Self.”

I do agree with this one. One cannot project outward until they are calm and balanced inward I think.

“As a rule of thumb, women are going to come from within to their understandings and bring those out into the world...from the feminine womb we give birth. Men, on the other hand, are going to explore through the physical world to understand and take that within themselves. Perhaps this is where we butt heads at times, I think it is, but at the same time we come from these different perspectives starting out and end up in the center of the understanding having learned about them in ways that we could grasp. It's all good. ”

I do think that is the biggest truth that must be learnt. I suppose for me that is why word usage is the stickler here, for I look upon the outside and physical presentation and expect the internal to be in place or they wouldn't be here.

DragonHawk:
When I think of strong women I think of my grandmothers and my paternal grandmother in particular. My paternal grandmother was twelve years old when her mother died and she was left to raise her three siblings. My grandfather walked out on her when my dad was still a toddler, and by all accounts her second husband was not much of a family man, liked a drink and died when my father and his two step-siblings were still quite young. My gran worked long shifts in a cotton mill, took in washing and had a cleaning job. She had a tough life. But she loved a glass of stout or a tiple of brandy and by all accounts she could do The London Times cryptic crossword in the time most people would still be racking their brains for one down. I was 12 when she died funnily enough, so my memories of her are childhood memories, but the one thing I remember about her is that she always had a big grin on her face and a kind word. I see the same traits in her daughter, my aunt in Canada, who having lived in Canada most of her life, and having been a regional manager for Bank of Canada, had a very different life than her mother. However, it is clear that the values instilled by my grandmother's attitude to life had a strong enough impact on my aunt to retain those values: her husband seems a restless soul: the moved house constantly when they were younger, and speaking to my aunt, I think she might have preferred a more settled life... My maternal grandmother had a similar life. We don't know when her mother died, but no-one really has any knowledge of her, so we presume she died quite young. My paternal grandfather suffered badly from epilepsy which made him quite a handful as he would become "agitated" for days before he had a fit He was a carpenter (and a good one by all accounts) but as he got older he could not work due to his epilepsy. My gran ran a small shop, selling the produce their small-holding produced which provided for the family: but with fifteen children (rural Ireland in the 1930's -60's!) her life must have been dreadful. But, as my mum always says, she would never hear any criticisms of my grandfather. She liked a ciggy and would sneak off to the cow-shed to have one as in those days in rural Ireland for a woman to smoke would not be the done thing.

She'd also take off up the bog road for a gossip with her pal if she needed a break from screaming kids! Of the two I think that my maternal grandmother had the harder life: there are no pictures of my maternal grandmother with a beaming smile as there are of my paternal grandmother: but the common theme was that neither of them ever complained, and by all accounts both just got on with their lives. Of course, by today's standards, women would look on in horror at their lives, but that's how things were back then. My point is that they coped, they made the best of what they had and they go on with life. Move forward a generation. As I said, I see my paternal grandmother in my aunt. She accepts people, warts and all, tries to find the positive and makes the most of life, which in her case is a very comfortable life., though I am not sure that that has made her any happier than her mother was: I think the happiness comes from within. It was interesting to see the interaction between her and her husband when I stayed with them in Canada and Italy. She states her case very calmly and with a great deal of grace and she accepts that things are not always going to go her way, and quietly puts right the errors that occur when her case is not heard by my uncle!

Move to my mother, and all her sisters and we have the antithesis of my paternal aunt. My mother will never lose an argument: no way no how. It's my mother's way of the highway. Many would see my mother as a strong women, but in reality it's as if she took on a vicarious victim role her mother never did: she had to fight every man, my father particularly, who ever came into her life: either outright, manipulatively or using feminine wiles to get what she wanted. And most of the time she won regardless of the cost and that cost has primarily been her own happiness. Move forward a generation again and I look around at women of my generation. I don't see many who are happy. I see women, like my mother, trying to beat men at their game rather than trying to change to be more like strong women. There are exceptions to this rule, I do know a couple of women of my generation who have retained their womanhood, but for the most part they are few and far between. I see far more women like my mother than I see like my aunt. Perhaps being so far away from home my aunt clung onto her family values more than most women of her generation: certainly her daughter is a lot more like my mother than her which seems to say that my aunt struggled to pass on her more feminine manner.

I don't think Walt Disney or TV soaps are to blame: that is simply art imitating life. I think consumerism is, and particularly the advertising aspects of consumerism. Advertising, from the earliest inception in the post war-boom has focused on women. The first consumer goods of the post-war boom were supposed to make life easier for women: kitchen white goods closely followed by homewares such as Formica. In the seventies and early eighties it was Bisto mom. Bisto is a form of gravy powder in the UK: supporting the idea of the perfect mum making Sunday dinner: but ever here women were being told what to think: in that Bisto was a fast-food version of making proper gravy. Ever since women have been trying to live up to an ideal advertising portrayed. In the late seventies we got Margaret Thatcher, and in the mid to late eighties we got shoulder pads. Women had arrived in the boardroom.

Now, none of this is a bad thing: or rather it wouldn't be if women were doing this on their own terms: but they aren't. My profession on the budgets/legal/contractual side of the construction industry is the most likely profession you are likely to find women actually working in on a building site (after architecture). I have had numerous female assistants and am currently working with a woman in a lower management position in the company I am on contract to. Without exception, these women have had to be better at exhibiting male attributes than their male counterparts to get noticed: in other words they have had to become men: and in all cases of the women I am speaking of they have. Now the construction industry is probably a bad example, but I see it with my sister in TV, and with female friends and mate's wives/girlfriends in various industries : it's not that women are perceived as unfeminine when they act assertively, it's that women have stopped acting in an assertive manner: largely due to the fact that they have confused assertiveness with aggression on their climb to equality and have come to believe that acting aggressively, a stereotypically male stance, is sign of a strength, when actually it is a sign of weakness. It's a symptom of the victim role women adopted in the equality battle. Equality of the sexes has failed in that it stopped being about valuing each role, but has become about women wanting the roles of men.

In many ways, that was why I took so much from my interactions with Jaguar Eyes and Dolphin man in the UAE: Jaguar is an assertive woman in a feminine fashion, and I can't remember (other than my aunt) the last time I saw that Jaguar could get her point across, as my aunt can, without becoming confrontational/aggressive if she did not agree with Dolphin. It strikes me that women so often take on the victim role and become aggressive when trying to be assertive because they have forgotten how to be assertive in a feminine fashion. I think the aggression in woman is more noticeable because, as a society certainly in Britain, men have become less aggressive since I was a kid, at least in my generation: New Man and all that.

Wynsong:
I have always been comfortable with my warrior nature. It is actually my first instinctual response. I'm not sure why. Most of my friends were male in my youth...I gave as good as I got..(actually I dominated most of the time). I coached males in baseball (with my dad), when I wasn't allowed to play for lack of a girl's league. I was told by an orthopedic surgeon, that I wouldn't have a bad back, if I acted more ladylike...I never saw him again. (he objected to me doing the required weight lifting training for my varsity volleyball team). I play to win, even now. I don't mind losing, didn't even then, but I always play to win. When my sons beat me, they know they have done so on their own merit, not because mom let them win for their ego. My eldest (26) can now pretty consistently beat me at Boggle (he studied linguistics at university, and he is fast), and with my back they have been able to beat me at bowling, but healthy, I was still beating them more games than they were beating me. They like competing with me, and anytime a Risk game is being called, they usually include me, even their friends. (actually, two of the friends consistently aligned to beat me...they couldn't stand the idea that I would win- I was most frequently the third last one out, behind those two) Raised during the late 50's and 60's society had women of my age choose -- We could be seen as competent and possibly a 'ball buster' (you can add other adjectives too...bra burning, feminist, bitch) or we could be seen as sexy...in that era, the two never co-existed. We wore suits and little ties and hid our most obvious female traits at work, so that we would be seen as serious. Many put off having kids so they could establish a career (as opposed to my mom who quit her job at 3 months pregnant, because she didn't want her co-workers to know what she had been doing...she'd only been married 3.5 years)

I'm happy to see that now women can be seen as both sexually feminine and competent too, and that more and more of our media role models for women are both. Love her or hate her, I appreciate Madonna for her role in putting both on the map. MonSnoLeeDra2, I'm not sure whether you have ever met a woman in full Mother Bear mode, but as I read what you wrote in your second post, I was reminded of a story from my own Mother Bear days. My son's coach at school was quite upset that during a team photograph my son had pulled a face...the paper had taken several photos and decided to post the one in which he had done so (according to my son, the photographer had said okay let’s make this one a funny one). The male teacher came out of the school to speak to me in my car, asking me if I'd seen the paper. Of course I had, and while not thrilled, I was not concerned, as this was my third son, and I'd seen much worse. The teacher though, was furious...it was a blow to his ego, I think that a student would do such a thing on his watch. He said that he was considering asking the principal to ban my son from ever playing sports for the school again (he was in grade 3 at the time). I can still remember the feelings that flooded through me, in that moment. I looked him straight in the eye, and told him, that he had to do, whatever it was he felt he needed to do, and then I would do exactly what it was I needed to do, in response.

He did nothing.

Physically in that moment, not a whole lot changed. My eldest son was in the car, with me, so what I could say to this man was somewhat limited...but energetically I want you to see a wounded lion trying to get to a Momma Grizzly Bear's cub. It wasn't pretty, and he backed off, as was completely appropriate.

I think that is what is being described for you above. Warriors protect...so to split hairs around whether a person is protecting or a warrior is a tough job for me. Fences protect and aren't warriors...a fully armed woman (with verbal skills and energetic strength) is not protecting like a fence, she is every bit a warrior. And as for manipulation...Mother Teresa was a genius at it, it was one of her main warrior's 'weapons' to get people to do for her people what she needed them to do. I don't see that as a bad thing. She did what she needed to do. She used the tools she had...some may need to call them weapons...to get the job done, and she did it with steely resolve and persistence. A warrior knows his or her skill set, and employs them to achieve their goal...Gender is irrelevant, except in possibly leaning that skill set in one direction or another. Women may use words over physical dominance or force....but I know lots of females who are pretty physically dominating and I wouldn't mess with them...so nothing is ever written in stone. A warrior doesn't have to be noble to be a warrior...they need to be willing to 'fight' for what they want... Young warriors are often hotheads until they get some seasoning...again...Gender is not the determining factor here.

A leader/ruler is often a warrior with experience...who may or may not lead the charge, but is definitely able to if required. I'm getting archetypal now...so I'm going to head to bed. This is an interesting topic White Crow. Thanks for posting it. It was fun to touch my warrior energy again...I don't suit up and step up as often as I used to, as I exercise other parts of who I am. Munay

MonSnoLeeDra:
Whitecrow said: “That's ok. I think the same of some of yours. For example:”

Ah but that's the nice part, we may disagree but can speak about it and hopefully not get offended or upset but simply present our perspective and expound upon it. Perhaps even be the catalyst that causes the wheel of change to start turning.

“The point is that Nature has no problem with strong females, whereas some human societies do.”

That statement I have no problem with. My point was the balance of acts within each and the ways they are obtained. But I think one critical factor missing is the notion that nature has no notion of pride and envy while humanity does. With no need or position of envy or want their is no need for an opposition to a strong female character.

“that both sexes need to claim their full balanced selves. Women being warriors is as perfectly balanced as men being nurturing and yet both sides either struggle to claim this aspect of themselves or find that society doesn't approve of them when they claim it. In this case I'm particularly meaning the woman warrior aspect.”

As I stated to Cinn above I think for me it's a matter of word usage and meaning. Of course that is meaning as I understand and comprehend it.

“Disney has only recently turned towards strong female characters. I grew up with Bambi, Cinderella, Jungle Book...”

Even those had strong female characters. I think though the slant was more so what not to be or what made them wrong. Yet I do agree many of them held to the prevailing Christian theory of exploitative women and they could not be trusted. Yet that is also a theory contained in a relatively narrow point of history and stories.

“To use an example - Assertive to me is the ability to say, "no" and be heard and respected for it.”

I suppose in that sense I do see it as more of an outward projecting thing than a position of respect and mutual authority. To me for you (collective usage) to say no means I should have respect for your position and person. It is not derived from you being a warrior but from a position of respect of person and a sense of their worth beyond just a visible presence. Inversely, I do not see it as a sign of being a warrior for you to say no but a sign of ones sense of self-worth and sense of self.

“Assertive is my one dog who would lift her ears slightly... and every other dog around her would back off in respect. She never growled or bit or barked. She just claimed her space with an ear twitch.”

Ah but to me that is not a sign of assertiveness nor or warrior stance. That is a position of implied authority and respect by others of that authority. It is a thing that is not only earned but often gained through trust and presence of the one who has earned it. In the animal kingdom a thing often earned via battle but in humanity earned by action and accountability and consistency of action in application. That and to be assertive does not earn one respect or tolerance. Assertiveness without the support means nothing and will eventually only result in a combined uprising against the one who is trying for power and position without having demonstrated the skills and traits to inspire those who she / he wishes to act over or for. A mother gains positional authority over her child from the sense that she is the one who provides for and takes care of them. A leader gains positional authority by selection and trust of those they would lead and by ability to inspire them to do as they wish. Granted that inspiration may come from a sense of the person having the ability to give or take away but it is always based upon that perception.

I do agree it is an interesting topic to discuss.

I've got to come back to this as it has been weighing heavy on my mind even as I try to sleep. Many speak of the notion of Warrior as being of things other than battle and conflict yet the purpose of a warrior is to defeat, destroy and or kill an opponent. A task that maybe as an aggressor or defender but the point being always to inflict as much damage upon an opposing force and render them destroyed before they can inflict the same or greater damage upon you. Many seem to relate the warrior path to the struggle of self and life struggle but that is not so. They are factors or component parts of the path but not the things that make the path walk complete or what it entails. The struggle faced does not make the warrior it only reveals the depths of the commitment and desire one has to face the walk of life. Far more often the struggle is in the way of the walk not the pathway that is walked. Yet the warrior also has one primary concept discussed in many facets, There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within. Morihei Ueshiba When life is victorious, there is birth; when it is thwarted, there is death. A warrior is always engaged in a life-and-death struggle for Peace. Ueshiba

Let us form one body, one heart, and defend to the last warrior our country, our homes, our liberty, and the graves of our fathers. Tecumseh

The warrior may battle within but the battle is always a physical one where they battle against limitations and constraints upon their physical bodies. They train to reach the point of failure then push it outward. They train to reach the point where any limitation is overcome and is enhanced to make them more effective. Even in weapons the physical is pushed and tested to move the breaking point farther away.

Many speak of the battle within and confuse it with the riddle of self. When one battles it is to overcome and destroy, when one chases the riddle of self it is to come to understand and reach a place of equality of the parts that create the human creature. We never ever try to destroy a component part of self regardless of what it may do or think. We never try to subjugated or defeat a facet of self for it is only when we have reached balance and understanding of self that we are actually whole and fully functional. When we are as one with oneself and centered do we have inner balance and light, never a thing that is obtained from battling of self. We journey and explore the inner realms of spirit and design to better understand who and what we are not what we can make or create of ourselves. The creation is the outward show of success in our journeys not the inner calm that is reached when achieved.

Warrior is a name that is given to those that live a certain calling. Those that lay their lives upon the line yet also trust deeply in those that stand with them, to the extent they lay their lives in their hands. Warrior is a title given along with certain honor's and expectations of those that walk the path and accept the fact that death is their constant companion and they may deliver death or be delivered unto it. In many ways a title that is recognized with honor to those that are willing to give their all to safeguard and sacrifice for their society. Their position and potential sacrifice driven by commitment to all they serve, not just those they may love or hold dear to them.

To some the attempt to lay claim to or use the title and honor is an affront for it cheapens the sacrifices they have made as a group or are willing to make for their group and their society. For me personally I see it as a cheap attempt to gain a bit of the authority and honor obtained by the warriors across the ages. Almost like riding upon the coattails of those that sacrificed all. Some lay claim to it as if they were the Amazon of old yet fail to realize even the Amazon of old were warriors in the battle but not all of their society were warriors. At times I'll be honest it fills me with a disgust which equates them all to Zena the Warrior Princess of movie fame.

If one looks to the tribal system of the Native Americans, Warrior was a sacred trust and position. Even today celebrated in feasts and ceremonial dance. Yet many of the females I know and knew in the service would tell you they are not and cannot be honored as Warrior's in those dances for they hold a separate place and power. At least one I know had to pass the title and honor to her father and husband even though it was earned in combat and battle. Yet she felt no hate or frustration for she was still honored and acknowledged for her strength. Strength a factor that many of them said was confused with ability and aggression.

I hear some that claim a single mother or similar is a warrior. I must say that is not true. Yes, they must face hardships and challenges but they are not the tests of the warrior nor is the final result the same product. A mother who defends her children is a protector and defender but they are not warriors for their call is passed as soon as the situation has changed. Yes many maybe called upon to stand in defense or protection but it is not their calling nor their place in life. It is simply a moment upon their life journey where as for the warrior it is the point of their life journey.

I think many today try to lay claim to an honor they have not earned nor carried the weight of upon their shoulders. Strength of person and character confused as willingness of sacrifice and stance. Aggression confused as steadfastness before the storm and commitment to cause and companion. Authority confused by acceptance of outcome and ability to inspire one to stand and defend or attack.

To many to my perspective think the notion of challenge and competition mark the warrior or one upon that path. Yet the warrior's greatest challenge is against self. Their greatest competition is against their own abilities and strengths and weaknesses. Few worry about challenges or competition's against another for it is always their own skills and abilities that mark them though another with greater skills an abilities may inspire them to try harder to perfect their skills.

To stand upon ones strength's and uphold ones will is not to be a warrior, to be a warrior is to do that for those that can't or won't. To do it every day of their lives and stand ready when the tides would show otherwise. One is a warrior every moment of their lives once they step upon that pathway, it is not a thing turned on and off as they chose or fate pushes them along.

But I think the truly horrific aspect of it all is that when one lays claim to the title when they do not walk the walk and talk the talk is an attempt to be what they are too afraid of being in their life. If you do not have the strength to stand by ones convictions and demand respect and honor then no false title will give it to you.

And no amount of aggression and manipulation will make one have strength of character and the ability to inspire others and self in the discovery of their life's path walk or actions upon it.

But the truly sad part is that those that walk it know it is not about male or female it is only about commitment to self, to group and to our calling. Those on the outside seem to only know what they think with regard to male and female and how they live life.

WhiteCrow:
Wynn, I loved your input. You summed up what I was trying to say with this... “Raised during the late 50's and 60's society had women of my age choose -- We could be seen as competent and possibly a 'ball buster' (you can add other adjectives too...bra burning, feminist, bitch) or we could be seen as sexy...in that era, the two never co-existed.”

MSLD, You're always interesting to discuss with.

“Many speak of the notion of Warrior as being of things other than battle and conflict yet the purpose of a warrior is to defeat, destroy and or kill an opponent. A task that maybe as an aggressor or defender but the point being always to inflict as much damage upon an opposing force and render them destroyed before they can inflict the same or greater damage upon you.”

True, but we can also use words or phrases to describe basic archetypes. Perhaps you could relate my ideas more easily if you take "warrior" as an archetype description rather than in a literal sense? Although... your description above still fits the warrior side of maternal/protective instinct, in the defender mode.

“Many seem to relate the warrior path to the struggle of self and life struggle but that is not so.”

I agree with you here actually. I don't see a "warrior" as someone facing life path struggles. I see warrior as a state of being. An archetype, for want of a better word. I also see the literal warrior, that you are describing - So two different version - the literal and the symbolic.

“That statement I have no problem with. My point was the balance of acts within each and the ways they are obtained. But I think one critical factor missing is the notion that nature has no notion of pride and envy while humanity does. With no need or position of envy or want their is no need for an opposition to a strong female character.”

Actually, nature has both. In recent studies (just this year) scientists realized dogs feel emotions like pride and self-worth. In a documentary series I've been following related to chimpanzees (hence my using them as a constant example ) they show signs of something akin to envy. They definitely throw full-blown jealousy tantrums. But to get back to your point - that without those emotions there's no need to oppose a strong female. I agree those emotions would cause a weak female to try to pull down a strong one. Probably even a weak male to want to destroy or undermine a strong female. I agree with you here.

“Even those had strong female characters. I think though the slant was more so what not to be or what made them wrong. Yet I do agree many of them held to the prevailing Christian theory of exploitative women and they could not be trusted. Yet that is also a theory contained in a relatively narrow point of history and stories.”

Not only Christian. My one feminist Muslim friend used to have a lot to say about how women's roles were seen in some Islamic circles.

To me for you (collective usage) to say no means I should have respect for your position and person. It is not derived from you being a warrior but from a position of respect of person and a sense of their worth beyond just a visible presence. Inversely, I do not see it as a sign of being a warrior for you to say no but a sign of ones sense of self-worth and sense of self.”

Yes, we differ here. I see assertive as being able to be respected even if you are disliked. It's about being in control and being a leader without regard for how we come across. Not fearing not being "nice" or not being "ladylike", which is still a biggy for many women I've known in my life.

“Ah but to me that is not a sign of assertiveness nor or warrior stance. That is a position of implied authority and respect by others of that authority.”

Ok, then give me another word to use instead of assertive.

Wynsong:
It is interesting to me, MonSnoLeeDra2, that your definition of warrior only includes preemptive or premeditated warrior acts. By your definition, I have to plan to act as a warrior before the stimulus to attack, for me to step beyond being a reactor. I would disagree, as I believe a warrior is always ready to defend that which needs to be defended in his/her view. My warrior skills...to attack at a perceived enemies weakness, to inflict enough damage so that they cannot do the same to me...have been honed over all my conscious walk on this planet. I just don't use a lot of physical force or weaponry that one can buy in a store ( I would use both if I thought that was the best way to achieve my goal). I use my experience, my verbal skills, my ability to read energy (even before I knew I was doing that)...

And if killing, physically, an opponent was what was required for me to continue to walk, one of us would die. That is just the way it would have to be. But you seem to imply dying physically is the end/ the ultimate sacrifice...the readiness to do so, marking a warrior from a non-warrior. ...I would strongly disagree with you here, for dying Energetically/Spiritually is just, if not more damaging. Living in a deathlike state, for me, by my definition, would be far worse than dying physically. In my healing work, I had to come to see that the very tools, skills, abilities I use to heal, are potential WEAPONS - what I use to heal someone could just as easily be used to devastate them. In every case, in the moment that I am handed the insight into another person's energetic self, and see how it weaves together to make them who they are, possibly/usually wounded in the moment that I'm looking at them (or they wouldn't be there), in that moment I could do damage that would take them ages to undo...and I get to choose to take another path...one that holds space for them to heal themselves. In that scenario, it never occurs to me to do anything but to hold space for their healing, it is what we are both there for, BUT, I also know that I could turn those same skills into devastating weapons...and my warrior is more than capable of using them to defend me, if the person is not there for their own healing, but for other reasons that are less healthy for me.

So you may not ever see me as a warrior, because I have never donned a uniform and strapped on a gun, and planned in a backroom somewhere to go out and attack someone else who has done or is doing the same thing ... ( I did consider it in my teen years, and am glad I did not) But I can assure you, my "enemies" always knew I'd been there. I can't say I'm all that happy with the way I wielded my power to 'destroy' in my youth. I was, like most young warriors, hotheaded and reacted excessively in some cases...doing more damage than was necessary to maintain the security of my own situation. I am more tempered now...I have more ways of being...more archetypal choices to employ... But Warrior was my first conscious choice...destroy them, before they destroy you, and I was always ready to do that. She (my warrior) was fully armed and always just behind me. So when I stepped into a situation, her "reaction" was simply battle readiness... Is that not what we do with our soldiers...train them, arm them with weapons we hope will be enough to conquer anything they run into, and then send them out, to react with battle readiness to what they find that threatens our or their security. Sometimes we send them out to attack...and of course those that they attack will not see them then as warriors, they'll see them as terrorists, bullies, and perpetrators...nothing as noble as a warrior. I haven't touched this energy for a long time. I'm happy to know that despite my neglect my warrior is still there... I can see I may have let some of her skills rust, and I may need to take them out and work out some kinks. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for this journey Munay p.s. This is the energy that caused my ex to say I was "scary". This is the energy that made a man who wishes to see himself as a warrior, feel "diminished" by me. Interesting...I will explore this, because all of that energy, in my own mind, was directed at making his world as perfect for him as it could be. And he left for a woman who would more accurately be a model for Disney's "evil step mothers"... Fascinating... (No need to worry, I'm aware that this is my story, about it all - a story that may need a re-write)

Again...Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for the journey

I'm moving my posts to my journal, as there is much here I need to journey. But I also need to let you know MonSnoLeeDra2, that our discussion, and your need to adhere to your definition of what criteria a warrior woman must meet to meet your definition...triggered all my old energy around being limited in how I express my Self in a world that likes to dictate to me how I can be, because I'm female. This is not your fault, so there is no accusation in it...just a note to myself. As women growing up in a masculine dominant society, to be taken seriously, I mentioned we had to wear the three piece suits...we even went as far as wearing ties...little bits of material at our throat chakra, to gag us, as effectively as the tie of the man's power suit had been gagging him for years. Also to illustrate that we were not showing off any of our feminine charms,

because to wear the bit of material, our "shirt" had to be buttoned to the top. To be seen as equal to a man, we had to act like a man...and that was very unhealthy for a whole generation of woman. To be seen as an equal to a man, we had to be better than him in his own arena...and YES! we got called names for it. In the military of my youth...women were pretty regularly raped by men of rank and had no recourse but to swallow the humiliation or find themselves without the military career they sought. It has only been in the last few years that that kind of abuse has been aired, and that women do have recourse. We had a situation locally just recently where a detective in our Police Force got away with abusing 14 women in staff and officer positions, because the bureaucracy was a few days late in filing the charges...a male dominant bureaucracy that protected its own.

The same male dominant bureaucracy that had a chief that told the media when my friend was one of 8 female police officers in his charge, that that was "8 females too many". I tell you these things so you'll understand where the energy comes from. That is what I fought...daily, all the years of my youth. No wonder my warrior woman is so well developed. I not only fought an enemy so powerful that it was un-seeable, and still is by many...but I had to fight myself, so that I didn't lose who I was in totality to become who I needed to be in part, to be given credit for being at all. And I had to fight all my sisters who didn't like women who fought, although they are happily enjoying the benefits now. I do not regret any of what I did as a warrior then. The paths it led me on, made me who I am today. You may continue to limit your definition of Warrior Women to the roles you have described above... You will not limit my definition, because I'll fight you on it. Which by your definition, makes me a warrior. To my journal...I've a lot of energy that needs a home. And I thank you all again, because I had not realized that I had relegated my warrior so far away from the main house...It is good to have her back, to feel her strength, her conviction and to have her focus...best cure for chemo brain I've found yet. Munay

MonSnoLeeDra:
White Crow said: “You're always interesting to discuss with. ”

Thank you. I realize many times I seem to be the one out of step which makes it somewhat difficult to speak without offending I think.

“Perhaps you could relate my ideas more easily if you take "warrior" as an archetype description rather than in a literal sense?”

That's where I do get in trouble for sure. To me it's not an archetype thing but a path walk I travelled all of my adult life and even parts of my youth. SO I see it as a living breathing thing that has costs upon those that walk it and demands a great sacrifice of them and those that love them. I suppose for me it’s not just a title but a way of life.

“Although... your description above still fits the warrior side of maternal/protective instinct, in the defender mode”

I do not disagree at all. It's one facet that has to be equally applied, to some extent a mindset that allows one to shift from aggressor to defender with relative ease. But also remind us that in essence we are defenders all the time, though that defender role may be in an aggressor format at time.

“Not only Christian. My one feminist Muslim friend used to have a lot to say about how women's roles were seen in some Islamic circles.”

You'd actually be surprised how many times we had this discussion on late watches and such. I worked with one woman who forbid her daughter to watch the old Flintstones cartoons at all for she felt it painted a really negative picture of women in general. I suppose that is where a lot of my position developed. Those women filled a warrior role yet they preferred to be known as strong and independent woman with the strength to back their convictions. To many of them the affront came from those that claimed their position but made none of the sacrifice and demands the pathway extracted from those that walked it.

“Yes, we differ here. I see assertive as being able to be respected even if you are disliked”

I can understand that. To me it is all about respect and leadership ability. A strong person can inspire and lead by example or word even when disliked by others. Respect is derived when you are consistent in action, level in opinion, and perceived as being genuine in belief and cause. Whether it be upon the battle field, in the corporate office or as a house wife or house husband. When one carries themselves in that light, it illuminates upon every facet of their lives.

“It's about being in control and being a leader without regard for how we come across.”

Ah but a leader of people always knows and care about how they come across. It does not matter if one is authoritarian in nature, diplomatic or coercive it is always the way one is perceived and presents themselves before others that gives them the ability to inspire or place what might normally be seen as unrealistic demands upon them.

“Not fearing not being "nice" or not being "ladylike", which is still a biggy for many women I've known in my life.”

That one I can only address from the perspective of those I have known who were women. I suppose for those in the military or structured organizations it is a different mindset than what is found in the corporate world or social setting.

“Ok, then give me another word to use instead of assertive”

That is actually harder to do for my word usage is filled with many military definitions. Though what comes to mind is Strength, Dependable, knowledgeable, reliable, forceful yet even handed, capable, those type words I suppose best fit it type.

“that your definition of warrior only includes preemptive or premeditated warrior acts.”

I think perhaps I was not clear here. I see things as a anticipatory thing. How will I react in a situation and what is acceptable reactants. If I control my reacting then I control the outcome to a degree. It's like do I allow anger and other emotions to move me in action or do I use it better to act with. I might get into an argument with a person and want to lay them out but in reality I have better control and influence over the situation by having for though and taking control of my actions. Actually it is no different than driving and anticipating what another driver shall do and the possible alternatives I have in influencing the outcome. One is reactive to the stimulus while the other is proactive or predictive in analysis.

“I have to plan to act as a warrior before the stimulus to attack, for me to step beyond being a reactor.”

To some extent that is true. I think though to me the difference is that under the warrior set you plan for various situations and train yourself in how to respond and alternate means of response. Granted the scenario will change, but the actions within a scenario remain relatively the same with regard to what options are available for response. As a reactor is it based upon the moment and is simply a response to the external stimulus that caused the reaction.

“But you seem to imply dying physically is the end/ the ultimate sacrifice...the readiness to do so, marking a warrior from a non-warrior.”

reality wise that is the truth. We may have to give our life when we walk that path, a fact we must learn to live with that most never fully explore or understand. It's sort of hard to define but let me try. I have lived in situations where I knew my life would last 1 - 6 minutes at best if we went to war. Not only mine but that of my family as well who were stationed with me. There was no doubt about it, we were expendable in the greater scheme of things for at that position our purpose was to buy time and hold on as long as possible. Day in and day out a shadow upon all we did, never an unknown variable that might come in the dark of night but a known fact. Yes chance or fate might strike at any time and claim an individual, that was part of living the path of life. Yet destruction in its totality was a spectre that lived with us. Yet in our everyday did we train for the possibility and test and retest to for see every possible way we could prepare for it. Yet the testing also serving to remind and re-enforce the finality of it if it did occur.

“In my healing work, I had to come to see that the very tools, skills, abilities I use to heal, are potential WEAPONS”

I think that every field has tools that could be utilized as weapons. The difference I think is that one field uses them in that capacity everyday while the other might use them as such if conditions warranted. I am no healer, never have been probably never will be but I have some of the skills and training for parts but it does not make me a healer, it makes me one who walks the warrior path and has some limited ability in that aspect of life. Which to some extent may be the truth of my whole position. If one says they call upon the strengths of the warrior position I can see and understand that completely. It is to seek a source of strength that inspires them and gives them a sense of power and perhaps position. Maybe even the focus and perspective that they can stand before the storm and ride it out or force their will upon it. Yet the critical thing to me is that they state they are inspired or touch that power source, they do not claim to be that power source or a warrior in this discussion. To take the name is to take the path and the trials and tribulations of that path. I maybe inspired to try and heal or perform simply life saving techniques but it in no way gives me the right to claim I am a healer nor a doctor or even an EMT. It is from my warrior confidence and trust that I try and rise to that need and do the best I can. Yet I would not ever claim the title or tag for it is not mine to lay claim to. It is an affront to all those that have taken that as their life path and put in the time and commitment to it. Yes I may say I wish I was like so and so. I may say that so and so inspired me to push forward and stand up but to me the critical factor is stating that they are the inspiration not that I am one of them or like them.

Wynsong:
“Yet I would not ever claim the title or tag for it is not mine to lay claim to. It is an affront to all those that have taken that as their life path and put in the time and commitment to it.” Am I to take from this particular statement that you are affronted by those of us who are not under immediate threat of being relieved of our physical life, that claim their warrior energy and claim to have walked a warrior's path?

MonSnoLeeDra:
Truthfully what I take affront to is claiming a title you have not walked nor earned. That it is a source of inspiration to one or many to me is not in doubt, to take a few steps upon a pathways energies does not make one a member upon that pathway. To me it is to lessen and cheapen the people who walk it and the energies themselves that gave one the willingness and inspiration to fight against something they saw as a wrong in life. It is from those that do and did walk it that the strength and power of the path was born that gave rise to the inspiration it instilled and personified. Spirit placed those upon that path walk that live that life. Supported them when it was tough and dangerous and breathed the trials and tribulations of that path upon them to experience and overcome. Made them in many ways the inspiration for others that did not have or need to step on it, in many ways did not even desire to attempt it. Spirit honors them with a calling of ceremony, dance, song and other honors that mark their passage upon it. If you want the title then walk the path. If the path was your inspiration then say it was do not try to claim what you have not experienced nor lived.

Wynsong:
“If you want the title then walk the path. If the path was your inspiration then say it was do not try to claim what you have not experienced nor lived.” Is this a generalized statement, or is it directed at me, personally. As I read and re-read this thread....what comes forward to me, is that what you have the need to bring forward here, is not what White Crow originally was seeking when she started the thread...

“How do you, as a woman, feel about the warrior side of yourself? How do you express this aspect of the feminine and how do you feel about that?”

When I answered, I was speaking to Crow's question. Your agenda seems to be along something different than how we as women experience our warrior nature. For us to discuss it at all, would possibly be an affront to your experience and definition of the concept.

MonSnoLeeDra:
“Is this a generalized statement, or is it directed at me, personally.”

Nope entirely general in nature and focus.

“As I read and re-read this thread....what comes forward to me, is that what you have the need to bring forward here, is not what White Crow originally was seeking when she started the thread...”

Not to my perspective. I saw her question as a combination of assuming the title of a pathway and one’s ability to utilize the male / female energies of a pathway. In operation most of what I saw to me was an implied notion that one touched the energies there for they were of those energies. To me that is wrong. To me to speak of what one encountered or the utilization of those energies would be about how it inspired or changed one in that moment of essence. That is gave one the power to say no I accept, even that is gave them back bone to stand up for what was right. But to my perspective at no time did it make them a warrior, it only showed their usage of that paths energy and power of inspiration.

I have not seen a direction of focusing upon the male and female balance of energies upon the warriors path. I have not seen a position of how one might use them and in the manner of use which did not come to the conclusion that "I used it there for I am it". Energy components of a path walk are great for inspiration but the entire pathway must be walked to fully know the balance and sensation of it in it's pure form.

“Your agenda seems to be along something different than how we as women experience our warrior nature.”

Actually no. As I indicated a number of times it was a topic of conversation many times for us. A topic to discuss the male affect / effect of it and the female affect / effect of it. Discussions of how it inspired and the different forms of inspiration it took upon both sides of the equation. What i have a problem with is the assumption that to touch or use the energy of the path makes one a member of that path.

“For us to discuss it at all, would possibly be an affront to your experience and definition of the concept.”

Nope not at all. To lay claim to a title or position is what I take an affront to. An affront that actually arose from discussions with many women on the path and the distaste it left in their mouths when their sisters claimed the title but didn't do the time on the line. Many that would tell you if they are the source of inspiration to do something they are all for that just don't steal their sweat and blood and claim it as your own. When one claims the title of warrior self or any similarity of that it was seen as taking their title and hard earned honors. You collectively want to speak of how it has influenced you / me and what we did I'm all for that. You want to build up pseudo justification of why you should have the name then it is a wasted argument on both sides. To those of us male and female upon this path walk you never will be until you walk our walk and talk our talk and live the same life path with the same trials and tribulations of it.

The energies of this path walk are not just for battle and conflict. As a male the feminine side is what touches me when I see another member of the group being wronged and compels me to step forward and try to stop or correct the situation. It is the female side of the energy that shows me the wrongs when I see some young guy wolf whistle as a woman or make lude suggestions and allow me to relate it from her position. It is the male side that pushes me forward to ripe their arse apart and bust their chops. It is the female energies that allowed me as a male to understand the anger, fright and frustration when a young sailor rode home with me and started crying cause she was scared she was going to be forced to do something for a senior petty officer. Through knowing her fear and position I was able to shut it down immediately and straightened that Senior Petty Officer out. Not only straighten out but checked with every female in the division to see if he had done to them as well. It is through feeling the female nurturing side of it that one sees a bit of humanity in all our opponents and think of what they may be forced to do because of who is in charge. It is the female energy that allowed me specifically to empathize with the woman that served beneath me and tried my damnedest to see they were treated with equality and respect. It was utilization of the nurturing facet of it that made all my troops know I would stand by them and stick up for them.

That they knew they could come to me and I would not judge or condemn without proof. Even in judgement I would be equal and uniform in what one received in comparison to another that did the same thing. It was the nurturing side that made me stop in the middle of the freeway and hold an old ladies hand as she lay trapped in a crumpled car and provide comfort and a Little bit of first aid. Yes the male energy gave me the strength to take the first step and the female facet the ability to comfort and console. Those same nurturing influences manifest in my interaction as a Scout Leader, Sports coach, counselor and manager when I retired from the military. Yes they influences me in those other endeavors but I would not claim I was any of them cause a part of my usage of energy enabled me or inspired me to certain heights.

CinnamonMoon:
The issue here is that the warrior within is a spiritual warrior, not a physical one, though it does animate the physical. There is an essence, an attribute within each of us that allows us to take a stand and fight if necessary for whatever it is that moves us to do so. We do not need to be trained in the military or take on an active military career to know that warrior essence. IMHO And I am not dismissive of the military personnel that wear the title of warrior. The men in my family come from a long line of warriors. Some fell in combat while others returned home; on both paths they walked or fell with honors. There are also women in my family who have joined the armed forces as well; they have served their tours of duty. Today those who still live are either serving or have served and moved on to other positions.

However it does not negate the knowledge and skills they have achieved nor remove them from the scope of being a warrior at any given point in time for whatever reason calls them to take up that side of their natures. It is no different for any other individual in the physical sense. From where I stand it's not an issue of title at all. It's an aspect within the nature of each and every one of us and some may or may not choose to know it. There are as many kinds of warrior spirits in the world as there are people, as many battlefields as there are causes to fight for. Off the top of my head comes a surgeon who fights for the life of a patient, a mother for the life of her child, an individual to beat a terminal disease, a person to stay afloat in the economic downfall, someone wrongly accused of a crime facing the death penalty...or someone fighting to hold onto their soul. The list is a long one and goes on forever.

There are many battles we fight in life and not all are fought with guns and strategies born of a regimental handbook. Not all are fought with troops or companions, many times they are fought single-handed. All warrior paths are to be honored as are the warriors that walk them in whatever capacity or guise that may be. To acknowledge and honor the spiritual warrior within is something that every Native teacher and Elder I've ever walked with has addressed repeatedly as a sacred teaching. To honor the feminine or the masculine warrior, the androgynous spirit within us, and let it come forth is something a shaman or Medicine person or a student of spirituality is going to come to terms with. Generally quite early on and continuing throughout the rest of their days as they evolve through their lessons and understandings.

This is not merely a physical concept, it is also a spiritual one. A minister goes to war against the forces of Darkness, walks the path of a religious warrior, and has their own set of skills and tools to do so. A shaman goes to war against those same forces of Darkness be they entities, illnesses, or stricken individuals that need Dark spirits cast out. Holy men and women from all cultures fight to make the world a better place without ever picking up a physical weapon other than their books of truth or verbal expressions of their sacred truths.

I believe that as human beings, each in our own way, we all do these same things. As a woman I have fought battles of my own, for myself or on behalf of those I love, in some cases for strangers and in others over principles. The warrioress lives in my spirit, she has taught me many things over the years and I would never denounce her existence. I embrace her with honor, with conviction, and with love. I know what I've been through, the challenges and the hardships that took every ounce in me to get through them. I fought in ways that did not require a gun or a knife as well as those that did. I've faced both and lived to walk beyond those moments. Did I merely tap an essence for a moment? No I fought the battles. What side of my nature came forward to do that? The warrioress side did. Do I walk as the warrioress day in and day out? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, it depends on what is happening in life at the time or what my pathwork is calling for me to do.

That same spiritual essence has come forward in other dimensions to fight battles there too. It is as much a part of me as my physical parts, not all of which are in active service at all times but they certainly can be put to use when needed. If I don't use them on a daily basis it does not mean they aren't there. The sacred teachings all hold to the spiritual warrior as a valid and viable essence within each and every one of us. If we tap that essence it will come forward and it will teach us to hone and honor our attributes skillfully.

That is not negating the soldier going to war, it is part of them too, but it is also a part of every living being. I have seen the gentlest of souls fight the most intense battles one could imagine and win because of their warrior spirits whether they walked away or fell in battle they still won in my eyes because they held true to that warrior within them. It doesn't matter if the battle is in the skies over the Middle East, on the ground on foreign soil, in a courtroom or surgical suite, or on the streets of someone's neighborhood or in their own home, it doesn't matter if it's on Mars or in another dimension or within us as we battle our own demons. It could be anywhere. What matters is if we will summon the essence of the warrior when the battle stands before us and fight as a warrior would fight in whatever guise that may be. IMHO.

Wynsong:
“Nope entirely general in nature and focus.”

Glad to hear that. I needed to know whether my words had affronted you, and apologize for their effect, if it was me. I'm glad it was not. Only White Crow can speak to what her original intent was in asking the question. When I read it, I read, warrior side...not warrior path. My warrior side has been present as already discussed, and thus did I reply.

“In operation most of what I saw to me was an implied notion that one touched the energies there for they were of those energies. To me that is wrong.” I'm having trouble interpreting this particular sentence. But I think it may have to do with what you call a Path. If I'm correct and you are assuming that when I speak of my warrior nature, or my warrior energy or my warrior side, that I am speaking of A Path...THE WARRIOR PATH...then you have misinterpreted my intent. I follow no path. I claim no role. My journey will touch many paths, but my journey on this earth walk is not about a specific path, which to me feels limiting. I am happy for you, if following some defined PATH works for you. I have more that I wish to say, but I'm at work, and need to go home to fully absorb all that has been said. I need to look and see if I claimed at any time that I was on a Warrior's Path, or if I spoke to my Warrior's nature...the side of me that operates from Warrior, and that will take a fight to whatever level I need to take it too, to make it complete. I will be back, having read everything, yet again.

((((Cinnamon)))), You posted while I was still typing, and I had to read what you wrote before I headed home. Brilliant. Thank you. When I read Crow's original post I went to how we are dreaming the world into being...how what we have learned through our warrior natures (male/female and everything in between), will help us to create a new world map that is healthier than the one in which I grew up, that was and possibly more quietly still is, dominated by the Masculine and therefore the masculine map for Warrior... I am wanting a New Map for anyone who wishes to walk it that doesn't define words like Warrior in a limited and limiting way. So I loved what you said...because it breaks it wide open...and in my experience, that is what feels like truth. Munay

CinnamonMoon:
Your words are very kind, Wyn, thank you. Yes, it does look like we cross-posted, ha! While I'm not sure I'd call them brilliant they are my truths. I had to chuckle, I'd been gone for a while this afternoon to say goodbye to my grandson who is about to deploy to Iraq, he's home on leave and brought my great-granddaughter along. *Happy dance* and a heart full of prayers right now. When I came back to this thread I was intending to address individual comments but the thread had grown so much! There was no way one post would do that so I just took my own perspectives and placed them. It's a healthy thread to say the least. Keeping up takes some reading though, doesn't it?

“When I read Crow's original post I went to how we are dreaming the world into being...how what we have learned through our warrior natures (male/female and everything in between), will help us to create a new world map that is healthier than the one in which I grew up, that was and possibly more quietly still is, dominated by the Masculine and therefore the masculine map for Warrior...”

Yes, I've seen that too. It needs more time to balance out. I do think we've reached a point where the majority of women are now seeing they don't need to behave like men, only strong women and that's going to contribute to a lot. Some of them see that anyway, I know not all do. Those of us who lived through the 50's to the 80's underwent some major changes didn't we? Not that we've stopped but we sure witnessed the death and rebirth of womanhood. I think we're getting past those hormonal teenage years now though and starting to find our stabilizers, at least initially.

“I am wanting a New Map for anyone who wishes to walk it that doesn't define words like Warrior in a limited and limiting way. So I loved what you said...because it breaks it wide open...and in my experience, that is what feels like truth.”

I feel it as truth and I've lived it as my truth, that and I've been guided to see that new map you speak of in my own ways. It's coming into being, Wyn, you're a part of it, we all are in one way or another---even those in the resistance. In a way this reminds me of the late 80's when the sacred teachings began being shared and the resistance of the Elders to doing so. The battles fought by Frank Fools Crow to spread the wisdom and share it around the world and the resistance he met in doing so come to mind. He wasn't alone but he is well known for his work and an excellent example of the tug of war change brings into play. I can't blame the resistance for feeling the way they do either, they guarded what was sacred for a long time, it's hard to let go of something you treasure so much but in letting go nothing is lost, it's merely shared. Change will manifest from our hearts and spirits as we learn to find that balance within ourselves. It begins there, then we can take it out into the world and manifest with it one by one as we become an army strong in peace and walking in harmony. There's a long way to go yet but progress amid the passing away of old, outworn, misguided negative concepts is a difficult bottleneck to squeeze through. It's hard to let go of what's familiar even when it's dysfunctional. And...well, with a world as populated as ours and the resistant force being a strong one it just takes time. *Soft smile* I'm holding space for it, working toward it where I can, living it as best I can and I know I'm not alone, millions of others are too and we can hold faith in that journey with conviction. It's good to see you feel the same!

Wynsong:
Absolutely. To the Future as it unfolds, To the Now as we live it.

MonSnoLeeDra:
Boy as I look back over this and read the entries that have occurred since my last post I am propelled back in time to my teachings from long ago. As I read Cinn's latest I hear the words of the abomination and the creation of the splintered self and the deep dangers of such. No I am not saying Cinn's word are such only that they make me recall those lessons from long ago, specifically the late 60's into the early to mid 70's. To my teacher's one had but a single self and no other visible or separate agents that might arise. Self was self and anything and everything else were simple facets of that greater spirit. In obtaining balance and harmony with and within it one had to become a part of the one. Never ever would they be told they hold a part called the Warrior, a part called the Contrary, a part called the healer, etc.

To even refer to such a notion was to split the spirit of self and create an in balance. I suppose in ways the outward notion of the 60's with the concept of the "Good American inside each Vietnamese person just waiting to get out" was the manifestation of that destructive slant. Perhaps even back to the notion that one could force out the truth of self and mask it in an attempt to force a new sense of Spirit in its place. Unto or into each of us is breathed but a single flame of Spirit. A flame that is given all the facets of mankind, yet only meant to focus upon a singular facet as a primary life path and path walk. It is this singular facet that we always return to over and over regardless of which trail we may wander upon. It is the facet of Spirit of Self that serves our greatest need in this incarnation of the great soul journey called life. It is the persona of what we live and how we live our lives.

Some will become the teacher and hold knowledge and then breathe to wield it. Some will become the Healer and hold the energy of touch and calming in their hands. Some will become the visionary and shall hold the energy of sight and vision and see the change upon the horizon. Yet the main truth is that all shall walk the primary course of their life calling and Spirit purpose. For myself I think it apparent my calling was that of the Warrior. A Warrior to function in the physical and the Spiritual facet of my life calling. It is the facet that colors all notions and concepts of reality for me and is the greatest source of inspiration for all I undertake or do. It is upon the balance of male and female presence within it that I come and came to know the boundaries or my realities and the edge of the veil part where my path walk shall carry me to in the intervention of years and time. Yes, even the path walk that calls for me to be in constant conflict with the theology or purpose of others as they walk their path walk. Not only others but even some that are upon the same path walk I walk upon in how they choose to honor and observe it versus how I do so and am taught through Spirit's guidance.

Yet, my Spirit self is aware of the facets of the Poet, the Healer, The Contrary, The Teacher and the many other callings that mankind may walk in. Yet the greatest danger is the assumption or creation of the notion of a Spiritual facet that rises or is independent of the core self of Spirit. Every time a new facet or angle is identified or created in my teachings it was to unbalance and divide the notion of self and it's awareness of and to a degree it's dependency upon the strength of the whole. It would be like creating multiple personalities that desired their own presence, even unto the expense of the whole with the part holding greater importance than the whole which it supported and encompassed. To give it name and form was the greatest of abominations to my teachers.

Every time one claimed they had a "Spirit Warrior" or "Spirit Healer" or another facet that denied the truth of their inner self it was wrong and destructive. Yes we as humans are aligned to receive insight and inspiration from within but are provided the ability to touch and be inspired by energies that reside outside of self to motivate or stimulate the lesser facet of self. Lesser only to the extent that is was not our primary purpose or position in this life walk. We could call upon and use in a base manner those energies, but they never made us a member who walked that pathway. Perhaps that is part of the old guard teachings Cinn referred to in her post, I really do not know for sure. But for me all the talk and notion of the warrior self is derived from the strengthened self and is either ones direct life path and calling or it is a part of the Spiritual Self that is stimulated to utilize the energies of that facet for that moment in time.

To lay claim to the name and path walk to me is the absolute debasement for it lessens and cheapens what one is allotted by Spirit to encounter on this journey. To see the notion of a shattered self that is constructed in manner of many pieces vice a strengthened and balanced whole is equally destructive to me. Yes, and even an abomination to those early lessons and influences of creating oneness of self and strength of the whole. I suppose not only an abomination but cause for the creation of multiple selves and a weakened whole or a fractured Self that vies for dominance vice a balanced and dominate whole that uses all facets of the Spirit of Self. Either way it is apparent to me that I shall not understand or relate to the split-self notion I see presented here so it is best I simply step away from this discussion.

Wynsong:
I understood your position more clearly here than I've been able to get it from your previous postings MonSnoLeeDra2. I am glad that White Crow lifted this and started a new thread with it as its core.

My sense was that what I was discussing and what you were discussing were not the same thing...which is where I was going at the top of the page... I can see the passion and energy that would come if what you sensed was something that you experience as unhealthy...(the split-self notion)... It is the same passion and energy that comes to me, when I'm sensing that I am being asked to limit my expression of myself. A very interesting topic White Crow... It certainly opened some interesting doorways...and paths to be explored.

WhiteCrow:
This topic took off in directions none of us expected, I think. All of them interesting, which is usually the case in good conversation. The nice thing about writing as opposed to spoken words is that here we have the luxury of going back to an idea that has wandered off topic and carrying on with it - something that isn't as easy to do in a room full of people talking.

Wynn, I love this... “When I read Crow's original post I went to how we are dreaming the world into being...how what we have learned through our warrior natures (male/female and everything in between), will help us to create a new world map that is healthier than the one in which I grew up, that was and possibly more quietly still is, dominated by the Masculine and therefore the masculine map for Warrior...I am wanting a New Map for anyone who wishes to walk it that doesn't define words like Warrior in a limited and limiting way. So I loved what you said...because it breaks it wide open...and in my experience, that is what feels like truth.”

I want a new map too. I also want a way to be strong without feeling I need to be aggressive to prove I'm strong. A way to be WOMAN strong without needing to pretend to be MAN strong in order for others to take me seriously.

Wynsong:
It is possible White Crow, that that has been my entire life journey. . . to find that path back to my strength, that is born only in my strength and not imitating the strength I perceive in the world outside me. I have been sitting with a lot from this topic and the other related topics, trying to find ways to weave all the different viewpoints, or perceived viewpoints together into a picture that makes sense to my Self. I've some things to say...to test in words, but now, it is time to go to work, and possibly squeeze in my first full set of Tai Chi, since my back blew. I'm not even sure my body will fully remember it, but I'm going to go see. See you on the flip side....and thank you again, for opening the door to this labyrinth of self-discovery.

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