SPIRIT        LODGE   LIBRARY Sacred Feminine & Sacred Masculine Page 31 part 2

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The 36 pages in this Sacred Feminine & Sacred Masculine section are below.

Abomination Or Denial Of The Unbalanced Spirit	Athena	Athena/Artemis — Hecate?	Castaneda	Feminine Gender Burden Basket	Finding a Way to Live a Healed & Healthy Masculine	Gratitude	Healed Wounded Masculine Leaders	Healing From the Anger of Abuse
Initiating to the Feminine	Is Balance Obtainable or is it Illusion	Living Your Warrior Woman	Maiden, Mother, Crone	Male Gender Burden Basket	Mary Magdaline Discussion	Masculine Rite of Passage	Masculine Spirituality Request for Information	Maternal Instinct
Men in Balance	Mother Earth	One Flaw in Women	Sacred Masculine Energy	Seeing Through Soft Eyes	Speaking the Truth	Spirit Lights	Stepping Out of the Shadows	The Fisher King
The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths & Secrets	Variances Between Male & Female Medicine	Warrior Societies	Warrior Women - 2 pages	What Balance Is or Means to Me	What Spiritual Activities Do You Consider Masculine?	What Was Your First Indicator of What You Would Become?	Womb With A View	Woman Depression & Anger

Warrior Women
By WhiteCrow

CinnamonMoon:
Crow stated: “I want a new map too. I also want a way to be strong without feeling I need to be aggressive to prove I'm strong. A way to be WOMAN strong without needing to pretend to be MAN strong in order for others to take me seriously.”

And Wyn stated: “It is possible White Crow, that that has been my entire life journey. . . to find that path back to my strength, that is born only in my strength and not imitating the strength I perceive in the world outside me.”

I don't know if I have 'the' map, but I do have one I've created for myself. Strength defined, for me, comes through the courage to go within and address my spirit to find the truth. I scan the situation through the sacred directions drawing conviction and fortitude by following my spirit's lead. I seek to employ the 3-I's while honoring what I see and feel. For me, when the truth is recognized I stand, speak, or act from the light it shines on things and composure is there. The willingness to honor my spirit is important as it gives rise to the fortitude that sustains the strength to do what needs to be done. I may not like what must be done but I can do it because it is the right thing to do.

If there is time to sit with things and take matters deeper I'll do that but either way I ask some serious questions: Where does the truth I'm seeing in a situation apply to me? Where does it apply to others? What do I need to do to honor it as I address it? Should I address it? What impact will my words and/or actions have? My course of conduct becomes strong by drawing from my spirit's core and the conviction that holds keeps my ego in check. I can then embrace that strength logically, because truth, for me, shifts from fact to fortitude lending more strength.

The result that follows may call for strength of action, sometimes the strength to walk away or do nothing. I find that centered in the truth with my spirit I'm strongest when I'm composed with the 3-I's. If emotions rise I transmute them to a passionate drive that fuels the need to hold myself in balance. Then I can act in a firm yet calm manner applying my masculine and feminine energy appropriately.

I came to recognize that to be a strong woman it is the nature of my spirit I have to honor so I examine how I want to conduct myself. I know when I've presented poorly in the past that it's left my spirit restless so I learned to listen to my spirit and follow its lead. It isn't the volume behind our voice or aggressiveness in our actions but the tone and firmness that carries our honest convictions forward.

It is written over the gateway at Delphi: "Know thyself" and "Nothing in excess." It isn't the emotional posturing or outburst that shows strength, to me it shows a loss of self-control and personally I don't like feeling that way. I believe logic needs to accompany upholding the truth by keeping that in my awareness. To some this map may sound complex but it's an expedient method for me and can be done very quickly. The appropriate course of action comes together and defines itself this way and the integrity of my actions follows.

MonSnoLeeDra:
Ok not trying to derail this thread any further but have to ask one question: One of the warrior path's greatest power's is that of honor and courage to face the future and be true to it. Yet it's greatest problem is that often to do so we look to the future at the expense of the present. If your using the warrior symbology and strength's how do you offset the negatives?

Wynsong:
MonSnoLeeDra, I want to answer this before I read Cinn's answer, because so much of what she says resonates in me, that I don't want to shift away from my own Self-Referencing. Earlier in this conversation, I got the impression (and this could be wrong) that part of the 'future' that the Warrior was facing and being true to, was physical death. I kind of got the impression, that if they stay true to their path, then that will be the worst they have to face. For to lose themselves and therefore become afraid to face their own death, would be to lose the path? I could be all wet, but that is at least a part of what I read. (Not the words, my interpretation)... And I think I said there were, in my mind worse things to lose than your physical life... So using my possibly faulty interpretation... And applying it to my own story...

I faced the future and stayed true to it, it every time I've challenged my kids on the paths they are particularly fond of, when it could have cost me, my relationship with them as 'Mom'. I had to face that being their 'Mom' was less important to me, than being sure they understood, were fully appraised of all that my experience told me they could be facing...and that their choices weren't being made from a short-sighted place, that could have very permanent outcomes. and I had to stand in their way... OR I had to let them go... depending on what decision would best serve them. (their future) And since being seen as "the best Mom any kid ever had, which meant trying to be as good as my own Mom seem to be to me", was my dream since I was very young, (despite my feminist nature, I wanted to be a full time Mom as my only real goal in life) and since I've always recognized my eldest as one of the purest gifts from Spirit that anyone could receive, because in giving birth to him, I achieved this life's goal... What I had to give up in the present, was my most cherished dream, so that I could best serve their future, oh, and actually do a good job of being a parent in the present.

I read that, and think, it may not sound like much, given the horrors a soldier may face, but it doesn't tell you about my kids suicidal paths. And to be truthful, I'm choosing not to give those old stories power by putting them in print...But I can assure you, the battles I fought, to keep them on the planet, long enough so they could grow up resenting the hell out of me...were real, and I died (or who I thought I was died) many, many times during them. I didn't offset the negatives, I accepted them, and I grew through them. I resurrected my Self, and eliminated versions of who I thought I was, and I became more Real. More my SELF. (so in essence the negatives became the positives...Roses grow best in manure) I made/make choices...and accept that in our dualistic experiences here in this time/space, my choices will almost always have benefits, and downsides...and that if I choose well, between the options I can see, I may be able to enjoy the benefits, and a great Rose Garden down the road. My eldest son and I are still struggling with the landscapes that had his youth as the 'training battlefield' or 'training ground' on which I had to learn to be Me (and drop my most cherished illusions that turned out to be roles) and let him be HIM, and accept that he might take his own life, and that it truly wasn't my story to create. He is still here. (I am so grateful, for I know many who cannot say the same thing)...and my 3rd son, also faced these journeys (The resulting landscape of our relationship is ostensibly the opposite of my eldest's and my relationship, because he had the benefit that I was better prepared the second time round- (due to planning, training, and more selfless execution-less a lot of the ego my eldest had to slug through). I don't know if that answers the question. I'll sit with it, and see.

CinnamonMoon:
You're not derailing the thread, it's a valid question, MSLD. How does one offset the negatives of the future? Well, in my 'map', I mentioned I scanned through the sacred directions, this is my method, what others do is up to them. In that scanning I

look at the logic, the actions to be taken, the emotional impact on others as well as myself, and the wisest course of action to uphold the truth I'm to face. It's given me a well-rounded perspective to work from. At the same time that is balanced on the axis of the Three Worlds...the past (where I perhaps made mistakes in similar situations or took a lesson from someone else that is applicable to the issue now)...the future is where I see the focus for the outcome and that impact, the consequences and/or rewards that will come of action....and back to the Middle World where it must take place, acting with focus and awareness in the 'Now'. For me that counters any negatives on my part. On my part I must seek, see, and honor the truth before me and act from the premise of the 3-I's as I've said. If my integrity there is intact, if my intentions are for the greater good, and I do everything I possibly can to resolve the matter I've done my best and remained focused in the moment that calls for me to do just that. It isn't at the expense of the present as this can be done on the spot. Time, in reflecting back or forward folds in on itself to become one with the present this way. One of my abilities is to step into time in slow motion, to stay the moment if you will. I can't explain it, it just happens when it needs to. I get what I call 'time pockets' and 'energy pockets' where everything just stops functioning at a normal pace, sound and motion slow or cease. When that happens I can journey, weave energy, scan a situation, tend what needs tending within myself and then take action when the pocket closes. I feel the pocket about to close as a forewarning and prepare to pop back into the normal flow again. If a pocket is not involved time will still fold in on itself for me. I can recall the past to the present, I can project to the future in the present, and what is needed can be brought to the moment at hand and so there is no jeopardizing of anything. In some cases situations arise that I've confronted before or are similar enough to a past experience that I know where I learned from it and what to do or where I made mistakes and what not to do. That's pretty much an instant thing. In other cases I've achieved things in the past I'm needing to achieve again and that comes forward with me. Knowing the potential for the future outcome enough to see what to strive to avoid and what to strive to achieve is very helpful in defining the strategy applied. If we hang up on the outcome, yes, we can create a problem at the expense of the present and throw off the desired results that way. But if we release the outcome itself and focus on the acts of the moment the expense is negated. The outcome will follow as a direct result of what we're doing now. Does that make any sense at all?

WhiteCrow:
I was watching TV tonight, a documentary on wild bees. It suddenly occurred to me that all worker bees are female, just as all worker ants. Nothing new in that except this time I was looking at them attacking and thinking of the fact that both these "armies" in nature are 100% female. Wondering what that says about the warrior in the feminine experience?

CinnamonMoon:
Good observation points, Crow! If we look at women as warriors there are many cultures throughout matriarchal history where women have taken up arms or held warrioress status. As the patriarchal came to pass they still took on those roles from time to time so both then and now it holds true. IMHO the spiritual warrior within a woman fights many battles and they are not always with warring factions or distant shores, sometimes they're on the homefront. Wyn addressed that as she shared her challenges with her sons. Strength and courage come in many forms.

WhiteCrow:
"Strength and courage come in many forms." very true

RavenFireStoneWolf:
Cinn, Obviously given discussions we have had about the contrary feminine, this topic has been on my mind.... Probably the most famous warrior-woman that comes to mind for me is Boudica, the queen of the Iceni (a British tribe from what is now the county of Norfolk) who led a rebellion against the Romans in Britian in 60/61 AD. Boudica's husband Prasutagus had been an ally of Rome and ruled his people as a semi-autonomous tributary king from the Romans. Boudica herself was reputedly of a royal line and a priestess. Legend has it that when Prasutagus died, the Romans treated his kingdom as annexed and it's people as subjugated, flogging Boudica and raping her daughters. With other local tribes in the south-east of Britain, the Iceni gathered together to plan a revolt, choosing Boudica as their leader, who, through the augary of a hare, declared that the omens were good. At the time the Romans, under their British leader Gaius Suetonius Paulinus,were off fighting the last stand of the Druids at Anglesey, an island off the the north-west coast of Wales. The Iceni attacked the former Iceni capital, Colchester which had become a Roman city and raised it to the ground at which point Paulinus (who had the Druids cornered on Anglesey and did not want to lose that advantage) took only a small group of soldiers to protect the Roman city of London, hoping to meet up with a Roman army from the South West of Britain: but they never arrived. Realizing he was vastly outnumbered, Paulinus retreated and let London burn too. The Romans eventually overcame the Iceni (exacting terrible revenge on the Iceni people) but not before the city of St Albans had also been raised to the ground. Boudica is reputed to have poisoned herself rather than be taken alive. In total about 60-80,000 Romans are reputed to have died at the hands of Boudica and her clan: which (although not mentioned in the Wiki article) was virtually annihilated after Boudica's defeat along with that of Trivovantes who had joined in rebellion with the Iceni. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica We have also spoke of "cunning" and "Knowing", the former as pertaining more to Shadow Arts and Contrary Medicines and the latter as Light and Upright medicines. To me Boudica was "cunning" (attacking when the armies were not available and the cities effectively defenseless: which also speaks to me of the manipulation we have spoken about) and the eventual results of that "cunning" were to the disadvantage of the Iceni: minor battles won but the war lost. Roman power was effectively cemented by her actions for centuries: until Rome itself became weak and crumbled from its center.

Over the last few years I have taken a look at the feminine in western religious iconography, and although religion may not be as important today in western society as it once was, and though as individuals we may not see religion as important, there can be no doubt that, in our modern era, our societies and its customs and laws are formed on Christian grounds and lores. So I took a look at the feminine, trying to figure out why the feminine was portrayed the way it is in the Christian mythos: starting with Mary Magdelene, through Eve (who is effectively personified if not as evil at least as gullible in tempting Adam) and through the Sumerian into the Hindu notions of the feminine. Here I found a model of the Warrior Woman in the Matrikas. Originally The Matrikas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrikas were the "powers" (usually) of the male gods: who fought demons and originally represented the "vices" that needed to be overcome. Later the Matrikas were ascribed more benevolent attributes and thus combined the powers of life and fecundity with death and lack. In our discussion about evil a while back, the end result seemed to be (at least between us) that evil was the propensity to destruction and part of the natural cycle of birth-death-rebirth. In their original format, the Matrikas were the death aspect of this cycle. In late BC Chinese warfare, women warriors were to be the last line of defense, not the attackers http://www.colorq.org/Articles/article.aspx?d=asianwomen&x=nanlin

“The Maiden of the Southern Forests is quite unlikely to be the only case of a woman in military service during the Zhou Dynasty. The Book of Lord Shang, written by Shang Yang (390-338 BCE), recommends dividing the army into three units - strong men, strong women, and the weak and old of both genders. The strong men were to serve as the first line of defense against the enemy, the strong women defend the forts and build traps, and the 'weak' soldiers control the supply chain.”

and a similar role was played by the women of the Cimbri on mainland Europe in their fight with the Romans in the second and first centuries BC as mentioned in the Boudica article. In view of the above, and our recent discussions, I found your comments here interesting:

“the spiritual warrior within a woman fights many battles and they are not always with warring factions or distant shores, sometimes they're on the homefront. Wyn addressed that as she shared her challenges with her sons. Strength and courage come in many forms.”

To me, feminine Shadow Teachers serve a purpose in assisting us in overcoming contrary aspects. They are, like the women mentioned in the latter two cases, the last line of defense: and in that respect, from a spiritual perspective, the contrary feminine is the hardest to find and resolve; as it is hidden deep in the Shadows: the protector of, but also that which we must summon (given it knows the demons), to eradicate them.

The Warrior Woman Within as noted with the Matrikas, is the death aspect of the cycle: and the demons must be faced if we are to right those contrary aspects and bring forth fecundity in our lives So to me, whoever the role model of the contrary feminine might be, whether a figure such the Matrikas, Boudica or a woman in our own lives, from the earliest of times we have models that serve to show us the purpose of the Warrior Woman and how that purpose is misinterpreted (such as in teh case of Boudica) and the unfortunate outcomes when it is, not just for the Warrior Woman concerned but, given the propensity to projection if we fail to face our own demons, to those around us: and in many cases, such as Boudicas. those the feminine is supposed to defend: not least of which being her own children.

CinnamonMoon:
I can see where you're coming from with this DragonHawk, and believe, as with any Medicine or attribute one might hold (male or female), that the contrary side is met initially. It challenges us to grow willingly or by experience in most cases. We don't always know what to do with that challenge and so are led into the lessons that teach us 'why' we need to transmute the contrary side of ourselves. Once we see why, and if we are willing to do the work, we begin looking for how it can be accomplished...and then we start asking questions that lead to that process. Naturally that's if we want to evolve. With a historical look into the contrary you're sure to find it in all cultures in one form or another. I'm betting there's also examples of the more positive side too. Some people walk their entire lives in contrary Medicine, I think we've all met someone like that if not several, and we can witness the destructive forces at play as there is usually always chaos and destruction in their wakes. On the flip side of that I've seen some amazing warrioress traits in women that leave me amazed at their strength, courage, stamina and conviction. I think it's all a matter of the 3-I's being present or not. And of course the positive and negative struggle that's gone on throughout the ages...it needs players for the drama on both sides.

WhiteCrow:
“With a historical look into the contrary you're sure to find it in all cultures in one form or another. I'm betting there's also examples of the more positive side too. Some people walk their entire lives in contrary Medicine, I think we've all met someone like that if not several, and we can witness the destructive forces at play as there is usually always chaos and destruction in their wakes.”

Cinn, This really struck me this morning. I've been talking to a friend about Durga a lot lately. Ok, to be more honest - he's always talked about her, but it's only recently I bothered my lazy butt to go look her up. Because she linked in to a vision I had recently. Anyway... for those as clueless as I was: “Durga is an incarnation of Devi or the Mother Goddess, a unified symbol of all divine forces.

The Hindu Goddess Durga manifested when evil forces threatened the very existence of the Gods. To destroy these demons, all gods offered their radiance to her creation and each formed part of Durga's body.

The name " Durga" in Sanskrit means " invincible". The syllable " du" is synonymous with the 4 devils of poverty, sufferings, famine and evil habits. The " r" refers to diseases and the " ga" is the destroyer of sins, injustice, irreligion, cruelty and laziness.” From here Durga is both the divine mother and the most powerful warrior in the gods hierarchy. She is "the

supreme power of the Supreme Being." By "Western" standards she's rather a formidable goddess to choose as your favorite, as my friend has, but to "Eastern" eyes chaos and destruction aren't always looked at in the same way. It made me think of Chaos theory and the fact the Greeks believed chaos created the universe and life... Are we wrong to see any energy as contrary? We've discussed here at SL how the concepts of "good" and "evil" are a bit iffy, that both are needed to created balance. Hinduism is far more open to the idea of all being needed, all being within the beauty of balance, than some religions. Are they right? You cannot have rebirth without death and you cannot have new growth without destruction of the old. A lack of chaos may not necessarily be good, it might merely be stagnation. To me it seems to be that balance is the key rather than the energies, or genders, themselves. I posted about the bees because I've been seeing them connected to the Mother. I was discussing that with my friend and it struck me how much of western religion belittles female power. I'm not sure why that came about and I'm not sure it matters. It's not going to stay that way. The energies of the planet are definitely shifting and I'm betting within that new energy women will be able to claim their true selves without needing to explain it, excuse it, or overdo it in order to be taken seriously. The imbalance is finally being brought into balance.

CinnamonMoon:
Hi Crow, First, thank you for sharing about Durga. Bees have long been attributes of the Mother, I believe you're right about the new energy restoring the value in women, we've touched on that in this thread too. However it will not be happening overnight.

“....to "Eastern" eyes chaos and destruction aren't always looked at in the same way. It made me think of Chaos theory and the fact the Greeks believed chaos created the universe and life...”

My choice of words were based in the context of what DH and I had been discussing off the boards and therefore the negative context of chaos was applied. In respect to creation theories, Chaos is very common as a link to Creation. Some people create chaos in the lives of others though (as well as their own) and it was in that light I addressed the term.

“Are we wrong to see any energy as contrary? We've discussed here at SL how the concepts of "good" and "evil" are a bit iffy, that both are needed to created balance.”

I don't think we are 'wrong' seeing certain energies as contrary at all, those contrary energies are like the Heyokah that teaches through opposites and therefore indicates when transmutation is called for. There are negative traits that need to be tamed. I'll just use the ego for an example. Ego can get out of hand with some and remains balanced with others, an ego out of hand can bring a lot of pain to others unnecessarily. Is that a good or neutral thing? I don't see it that way, but that's just my opinion. If I look back through history I can see where the ego of certain

political figures destroyed nations. When destruction comes about by natural forces it's one thing, when it comes about because someone is out of control and rampaging it's quite another wouldn't you say? I do believe all forces of nature and the universe are necessary as part of the checks and balances in life. Humans were given free will and in that our own system of checks and balances while remaining subject to those forces of life that permeate. If we are (IMHO) out of balance with a predominance of contrary Medicine, bringing forth the negative traits only (aware or not) we have to bring ourselves into check or we are nothing but a destructive force wherever we go--whether it's needed or not. Certainly the argument could be made that an individual was moved by the universe to initiate change through Chaos or destructive forces. But I was addressing the individual that will do that to circles of friends, to their family, perhaps in their work environment, where they just make everyone miserable for the sake of doing so. Sometimes the chaotic and the contrary needs to be restrained by a greater force of Chaos to restore that balance. I don't know how much sense I'm making here. Haven't had my coffee yet and it's rather early in the day. I think where you're coming from and where I was coming from were two different ends of the spectrum. Of course you cannot have rebirth without death, nor new growth without decay of the old. And in that sense as you said, "a lack of chaos may not necessarily be good, it might merely be stagnation. " However, it is not for one individual to bring that into the lives of others IMHO. Balance is the key so I do agree with you there. And I eluded to that not being gender specific. I agree with you, western religion does belittle the feminine powers. But we're not talking religion or nature or the universe in this thread, we're discussing the warrioress within the individual woman. As a smaller fraction of the greater whole I can see where the twist on the words: chaos or contrary or destructive could be brought into question. However I've known enough people in my life that walk with those traits in very negative ways and do a lot of damage to innocent people. Looking at the terrorists that have held the world in fear for so long I think we can see the human element at play as a good example.

DragonHawk:
Cinn,

“I can see where you're coming from with this DH, and believe, as with any Medicine or attribute one might hold (male or female), that the contrary side is met initially.”

Which is the case with the Hindu Matrikas: initially they were seen as destroyers only later becoming associated with fecundity: as if once the demons within are destroyed, fecundity is assured.

I had an client a few years back: an Indian women, who explained all this to me: but have to admit that I can't remember it all now: but worship of the Matrikas and the Durga who Crow mentions was as much about protection as it was fecundity, if not more so as it is through

protection when fighting the demons within (i.e. within our mind) that the story of the Matrikas brings forth and the success in those battles that the protection brings that fecundity into our lives: that the contrary can righted.

It strikes me that, even though we also meet the masculine in the Within the Within is more feminine in nature (compared to the Without of the World of Form) ie going Within is a more feminine activity. There we find the demons of mind: in other words it is through the feminine that we fight these demons: our demons are not in the outer world, but lie within: they are projected out for sure, but essentially they lie within. This was my point about Boudica: that "Knowing" might have told her that war against the Romans, and particularly the slaughter of innocents she led, was not the answer: as we have been discussing recently though our own experiences of feminine Shadow Teachers: we encounter them to experience the demons within: not to fight them without i.e. it is on the inner levels that the fight occurs: which eventually brings fecundity into our lives once the battles are won.

And yes, that is true both for men and women: but if we are talking attributes rather than sex there are roles played by the forces: and although both sexes contain an element of the other, there must be a preponderance in each sex of that force of their own kind: i.e. that women have slightly more of the feminine principal and men the masculine: both men and women have estrogen and testosterone but in varying quantities according to their sex. It's a bit like the "cunning" and "Knowing" we have discussed and the "cunning" being a masculine attribute and "Knowing" being a more feminine attribute and warfare to me requires "cunning" i.e. a more masculine attribute.

It strikes me therefore that if we take the battles out into the mundane, we are perhaps failing to go Within in some respect: and projecting the feelings we need to heal outwards in the process: this is what I was referring to: and examples both from history and myth of the effects of both going within and healing (the Matrikas) or going without and causing destruction (Boudica) and that often it is others that are harmed in the latter case (i.e. the Iceni as a tribe)

Crow mentioned Durga. Durga is also known as "the inaccessible", which when combined with the "invincible" epithet to me gives a little more understanding about her: she doesn't give the insight that allows us to fight the battles Within without effort: in her case a great deal of effort in the battles she fought with the demon that wanted to destroy all three Worlds: the battle for which she came forth from the Light of all the other gods coming together to bring forth the "Lila" (or Cosmic Force) to slay the Demon. This to me speaks of the notion that when we put all good intent into our actions and bring forth our Self, we can slay the demons of our mind.

In many ways her creation mythos resembles the creation mythos of the Hebrew world: the Light being concentrated to achieve Order from Chaos. In the Hindu mythos, the goddesses are mostly seen as the "powers" (shakti: feminine creative powers) of the god aspects: the partners or vessels though which the Divine brings Order to Chaos: the encompassing Light which brings forth the core Light The Sacred Union of the gods/goddesses bringing forth Universal Consciousness (i.e. the Jesus mythos) to slay the demons within. So yes, without Chaos, there would be no Order to be brought forth and in that respect, I can see Crow's point about balance, but I see it more as a cycle rather than a balance. I do see Crows point about Order and

stagnation: and in that respect yes, Chaos needs to be a part of our life: but to me it is there to be overcome: just as Durga overcame the demon Mahishasur.

I think as a race we humans seek order: and looking into both the Hebrew and Hindu myths (the latter being earliest influences affecting western society) I can see where the feminine got a bad name (through disinformation: either deliberate or otherwise) as it is usually the force that represents the force that entered the Chaos (i.e. that created Chaos) onto which Order was projected: i.e. how Durga was brought forth from the combined light of the gods to fight the Demon that wanted to destroy the worlds (Chaos). It's a bit confusing in that Lila came first and created the gods, but then came from the Light of the gods: a bit like the Word in the beginning of John's gospel: it was there in the Beginning but came forth from that which it created. To me this speaks of how we might say we bring forth Light to do healing etc.: that Light was always there: we just bring it forward by our intent.

The Adam and Eve story is similar to the Durga story in that it represents the feminine aspect being the means by which the Order of the Divine was brought forth into the Chaos: the Garden of Eden being Order and the so called "fall" (from Order to Chaos) being the means by which the Divine created the Universe from Chaos: by projecting Itself into the Chaos: the feminine instigated that "fall" i.e. was the vessel of that fall. From a human/religious perspective that "fall" was a disaster from which we must return: but from the Divine perspective it was the means by which the Divine was to "experience" and it was achieved by the feminine.

It's the same with the Matrikas and Contrary Medicines: from our perspective Chaos came first, and the righting of that Chaos brings fecundity: but once we start to walk our spiritual path we find our spirit/Self: that part of us which is of Order and came first and was projected into the Chaos to bring Order to the Chaos: just as we seek to right Contrary Medicines, but are essentially spirits that came from that initial Order.

The role of the feminine to me then is to be the vessel of Order. If the vessel is bringing Chaos, to me there is a lack of association with the original Order: ie our spirit or Self and only a concentration on the Chaos itself i.e. the mundane or self i.e. just as Boudica brought Chaos to the Iceni. With such associations, we cannot bring the fecundity into our lives that Murga slaying the destroyer Demon brings: or as it says in the Christian mythos how Jesus saved mankind from sin. In both cases the Demon/sin would be not seeking to heal our inner demons but project them out into the world: project the Chaos of our mundane mind, not the Order of our spirit.

CinnamonMoon:
Hey DH

“Which is the case with the Hindu Matrikas: initially they were seen as destroyers only later becoming associated with fecundity: as if once the demons within are destroyed, fecundity is assured.”

Yes.

“I had an client a few years back: an Indian women, who explained all this to me: but have to admit that I can't remember it all now: but worship of the Matrikas and the Durga who Crow mentions was as much about protection as it was fecundity, if not more so as it is through protection when fighting the demons within (i.e. within our mind) that the story of the Matrikas brings forth and the success in those battles that the protection brings that fecundity into our lives: that the contrary can righted.”

I would agree.

“It strikes me that, even though we also meet the masculine in the Within the Within is more feminine in nature (compared to the Without of the World of Form) i.e. going Within is a more feminine activity. There we find the demons of mind: in other words it is through the feminine that we fight these demons: our demons are not in the outer world, but lie within: they are projected out for sure, but essentially they lie within.”

I agree.

“This was my point about Boudica: that "Knowing" might have told her that war against the Romans, and particularly the slaughter of innocents she led, was not the answer: as we have been discussing recently though our own experiences of feminine Shadow Teachers: we encounter them to experience the demons within: not to fight them without i.e. it is on the inner levels that the fight occurs: which eventually brings fecundity into our lives once the battles are won.”

Nods. There is a saying: "The battle of the ages is fought within ourselves." It's true.

“And yes, that is true both for men and women: but if we are talking attributes rather than sex there are roles played by the forces: and although both sexes contain an element of the other, there must be a preponderance in each sex of that force of their own kind: i.e. that women have slightly more of the feminine principal and men the masculine: both men and women have estrogen and testosterone but in varying quantities according to their sex. It's a bit like the "cunning" and "Knowing" we have discussed and the "cunning" being a masculine attribute and "Knowing" being a more feminine attribute and warfare to me requires "cunning" i.e. a more masculine attribute.”

Nods.

“It strikes me therefore that if we take the battles out into the mundane, we are perhaps failing to go Within in some respect: and projecting the feelings we need to heal outwards in the process: this is what I was referring to: and examples both from history and myth of the effects of both going within and healing (the Matrikas) or going without and causing destruction (Boudica) and that often it is others that are harmed in the latter case (i.e. the Iceni as a tribe)”

Yes, that's the point I was making about those who leave chaos and destruction in their wakes. They're not doing the internal work that needs to be attended and generally are blind to the fact that it's called for. They're projections into the world around them are begging for a mirror to

reflect the truth back to them. Even then many don't see that as a reflection of themselves. We can't force feed someone and make them see it either, we can only serve as a mirror and hope they really do take a deeper look.

“Crow mentioned Durga. Durga is also known as "the inaccessible", which when combined with the "invincible" epithet to me gives a little more understanding about her: she doesn't give the insight that allows us to fight the battles Within without effort: in her case a great deal of effort in the battles she fought with the demon that wanted to destroy all three Worlds: the battle for which she came forth from the Light of all the other gods coming together to bring forth the "Lila" (or Cosmic Force) to slay the Demon. This to me speaks of the notion that when we put all good intent into our actions and bring forth our Self, we can slay the demons of our mind.”

That's what it takes. When I fought with my demons it was the strength and goodness of my spirit that won those battles, not the physical me. It was my will, my intent combined with my integrity, all intangible assets in that battle but powerful ones. They allowed me to step aside and let those demons go back to where they came from. It wasn't easy, fear loomed, but the spirit laughs in the face of fears and shatters them for the illusions they are and it rises with strength and conviction to stand its ground. Personal reflection there. Sorry.

“In many ways her creation mythos resembles the creation mythos of the Hebrew world: the Light being concentrated to achieve Order from Chaos. In the Hindu mythos, the goddesses are mostly seen as the "powers" (shakti: feminine creative powers) of the god aspects: the partners or vessels though which the Divine brings Order to Chaos: the encompassing Light which brings forth the core Light The Sacred Union of the gods/goddesses bringing forth Universal Consciousness (i.e. the Jesus mythos) to slay the demons within.”

The Grail being the Mother's Womb.

“So yes, without Chaos, there would be no Order to be brought forth and in that respect, I can see Crow's point about balance, but I see it more as a cycle rather than a balance. I do see Crows point about Order and stagnation: and in that respect yes, Chaos needs to be a part of our life: but to me it is there to be overcome: just as Durga overcame the demon Mahishasur.”

I think it's a bit of both, if the cycles are flowing they are in balance. If we look at the Wheel turning on its axis we see that point of balance within the center as the cycles turn the seasons of life and events in it.

“I think as a race we humans seek order: and looking into both the Hebrew and Hindu myths (the latter being earliest influences affecting western society) I can see where the feminine got a bad name (through disinformation: either deliberate or otherwise) as it is usually the force that represents the force that entered the Chaos (i.e. that created Chaos) onto which Order was projected: ie how Durga was brought forth from the combined light of the gods to fight the Demon that wanted to destroy the worlds (Chaos). It's a bit confusing in that Lila came first and created the gods, but then came from the Light of the gods: a bit like the Word in the beginning of John's gospel: it was there in the Beginning but came forth from that which it created. To me

this speaks of how we might say we bring forth Light to do healing etc.: that Light was always there: we just bring it forward by our intent.”

Which is similar to the spirit within us that contains that spark (the Light) of life (Creation)…that part of us that is connected to Great Mystery…our part of the Whole. And when we take on the role of Witness to the Inner Spirit we step aside no longer blocking the Light, we allow it to shine forth.

“The Adam and Eve story is similar to the Durga story in that it represents the feminine aspect being the means by which the Order of the Divine was brought forth into the Chaos: the Garden of Eden being Order and the so called "fall" (from Order to Chaos) being the means by which the Divine created the Universe from Chaos: by projecting Itself into the Chaos: the feminine instigated that "fall" i.e. was the vessel of that fall. From a human/religious perspective that "fall" was a disaster from which we must return: but from the Divine perspective it was the means by which the Divine was to "experience" and it was achieved by the feminine.”

Well, I'm not going to get on my soapbox about that story. Suffice it to say that it represents to me the fall of the matriarchal power and rise of the patriarchal power in the physical world too. In this I see where your point is quite valid…as humans it is our task to rectify or bring into balance the two powers as one…the Unification process…which begins Within us and is only then capable of being projected out into the world through the Light of Understanding, born of our experience in that battle and the experience born of the enlightenment we find that tells us it must be fought. Only after we've passed through that process of Unification can we fully comprehend all it encompasses, but then that's where the wisdom of the Apple lies…cut it open, see the Star in the center. Those seeds of understanding. *Soft smile* A cycle that must come full circle for each of us. It wasn't just about Adam and Eve, it was about humanity.

“It's the same with the Matrikas and Contrary Medicines: from our perspective Chaos came first, and the righting of that Chaos brings fecundity: but once we start to walk our spiritual path we find our spirit/Self: that part of us which is of Order and came first and was projected into the Chaos to bring Order to the Chaos: just as we seek to right Contrary Medicines, but are essentially spirits that came from that initial Order.”

Yep!

“The role of the feminine to me then is to be the vessel of Order.”

I agree. If you look at the Tarot (I'm thinking of the Rider Waite deck) and Major Arcana card VI, The Lovers, it teaches this lesson in layers or on levels. It is the story of Adam and Eve, the spirit above them is Raphael who spreads arms to influence them both. The Tree of Life on Adam's side and the Tree of Knowledge with the Serpent (transformation of the knowledge between Good and Evil through the senses/sensation is one of the attributes of Snake…which climbs…ascends into Higher Awareness) on Eve's side.

Woman feels the spirit within speaking to her, she shares her Knowing with Man and Man in his cunning responds…the subconscious (man) must pass through the conscious (woman) to get to

the supra-conscious (Raphael's shared wisdom of the Light). The figure of Eve turns her head to look into Raphael's eyes with understanding but Adam does not establish that direct eye contact, instead he looks to Eve for it. While human love is part of this it is through Eve that the Sacred Love is understood and brought forth.

The temptation (Battle of the Ages with the demons Within us) is the battle between what is sacred and profane and the card represents that choice being Adam's. If upright (integrity and right action) that knowledge and understanding serve to make the sacred choices wisely. If reversed the knowledge and understanding become corrupted and bring about wrong discernments and actions. Upright it represents the harmony both internally and externally (spiritual and physical) while when reversed they represent chaos and destruction through misunderstanding and the fall into the Chaos and destruction…the demons win.

“If the vessel is bringing Chaos, to me there is a lack of association with the original Order: ie our spirit or Self and only a concentration on the Chaos itself i.e. the mundane or self i.e. just as Boudica brought Chaos to the Iceni. With such associations, we cannot bring the fecundity into our lives that Murga slaying the destroyer Demon brings: or as it says in the Christian mythos how Jesus saved mankind from sin. In both cases the Demon/sin would be not seeking to heal our inner demons but project them out into the world: project the Chaos of our mundane mind, not the Order of our spirit.”

Yes, that's why I used the example just now of the Lovers. This is Spirit and Mother in the Light of their Union when upright, and the imbalance and triumph of Darkness when reversed.

WhiteCrow:
This has been an amazing topic that keeps adding layers on layers, all of them unique and worth reading.

DragonHawk:
Hey Cinn,

“I think it's a bit of both, if the cycles are flowing they are in balance.”

Well, yes, but if there is only balance, there is stagnation too surely: the Wheel must turn sorta thing or we remain in the same place, never moving forward? To me the cross-quarters move us through the Wheel: they are like the Chaos we seek to bring to Order at the next quarter. In many respects the Celtic Cross reminds me of the Matrikas as it celebrates the cross-quarters: fires are lit at all Celtic festivals to ward off the demons and seek the protection of the gods/goddesses: but in the Celtic mythos, it is the courting of the Queen that is important: it is she who is wooed either by the Winter or Summer God to create the Seasons: lack or fecundity.

“Suffice it to say that it represents to me the fall of the matriarchal power and rise of the patriarchal power in the physical world too.”

I can see your point here: and to me this speaks of Darwin funnily enough: in that my view on the Darwin v God debate is that God created the "blueprint" and set it in motion and evolution did the rest according to the blueprint. Maybe that blueprint was DNA? But according to that rule, then yeh, I can see what you mean: that what occurred in the ethereal worlds would repeat here. However, in that case, the Matriarchal age had to "fall" to bring forward the Patriarchal: which must itself eventually "fall" but my guess would be that we would need another era of the Matriarchal before the next era could come forward.

“In this I see where your point is quite valid…as humans it is our task to rectify or bring into balance the two powers as one…the Unification process…which begins Within us and is only then capable of being projected out into the world through the Light of Understanding, born of our experience in that battle and the experience born of the enlightenment we find that tells us it must be fought.”

Yeh I think we do bring further understandings in the Union that breeds even greater understandings which points us to the battles we need to fight and those we don't.

“Only after we've passed through that process of Unification can we fully comprehend all it encompasses, but then that's where the wisdom of the Apple lies…cut it open, see the Star in the center. Those seeds of understanding. *Soft smile* A cycle that must come full circle for each of us. It wasn't just about Adam and Eve, it was about humanity”

To me Adam and Eve are archetypes (of the blueprint) that repeat throughout all the worlds: so whether as Spirit, spirit or human man, Adam and Eve are found at all levels.

“it teaches this lesson in layers or on levels.”

To me the Snake also represents DNA striving for the perfection of the blueprint. In Kabbalah it is the upward reaching force on the Tree (as opposed to the lightning bolt that comes down the tree): and is feminine in nature

“Woman feels the spirit within speaking to her, she shares her Knowing with Man and Man in his cunning responds…the subconscious (man) must pass through the conscious (woman) to get to the supra-conscious (Raphael's shared wisdom of the Light).”

To me the male is consciousness, the feminine subconscious and Spirit/our spirit the Super-conscious, so I am interested in understanding your comments here: we are conscious and we delve the subconscious (Within) to reach the Superconscious Self or Spirit or so it seems to me.

“While human love is part of this it is through Eve that the Sacred Love is understood and brought forth.”

Now this is interesting: as I associate Love with the feminine more than the masculine, though why I've never understood.

“The temptation (Battle of the Ages with the demons Within us) is the battle between what is sacred and profane and the card represents that choice being Adam's.”

Which I presume is because it is the masculine that brings forth the seed of the feminine: i.e. the active masculine brings forth what is felt Within by the feminine out into the world of form? In that case, it is the masculine that brings forth what the feminine has felt and decided: and the masculine must decide whether to bring that influence out into the world?

CinnamonMoon:
I'm under the weather today, not sure if I'm coming down with a cold or flu but I'm heading to bed. I'll come back to this soon though. Sorry for the delay.

WhiteCrow:
DH, Thinking of the serpent as DNA... could the "wisdom" Eve obtained via the serpent be connected to fertility and birth? Ok, it was a good idea in my head, but now I can't get it into words. Just a feeling there's a link there with DNA-serpent, apple-wisdom and woman as the child-bearer that I'm just not getting. Urgh Off to bed - try again tomorrow!

DragonHawk:
Crow: "Thinking of the serpent as DNA... could the "wisdom" Eve obtained via the serpent be connected to fertility and birth? Ok, it was a good idea in my head, but now I can't get it into words. :-\ Just a feeling there's a link there with DNA-serpent, apple-wisdom and woman as the child-bearer that I'm just not getting. Urgh"

The idea of the serpent, birth-death-rebirth and DNA etc. are all linked to me somehow: and to me at least places like Meas Howe on Orkney and Newgrange in Ireland (and other such sites around the UK and north-western Europe and the pyramids in Egypt and other such places in Asia) are all about this kinda stuff: and those Neolithic monuments appear to be contemporary with the (Shamanic era) start of the serpent cults or at least their immediate predecessors (i.e. depending on the sources you read for the origins of the serpent/dragon/fish cults and when they first appeared). I'm not sure the ancients understood DNA (though I think they had a much better appreciation of human biology than we give them credit for: especially as it relates to human reproduction) but it’s interesting that the double-helix features in the serpent cults (and in the chakra system) and is the figure of DNA. I know that in Chassidus/Kabbalah, the apple represents "seed within seed" i.e. self-replicating. The serpent represents "upward" motion i.e. the "striving" up the Tree of Life to "return" to wisdom that the "fallen" (ie the Creation) had prior to the "fall": and the Lightning Bolt that comes down the Tree represents "Wisdom" from Source.

The striving to return is feminine (ie the serpent) and the Lightning Bolt is sorta like Creator's desire to bring Wisdom: the two intertwine on the Tree to create a loop: and we, the Created, are the vehicle for that creates the loop (hence we are co-creators). The human female is self-replicating to an extent: she holds the "seed" (i.e. her eggs) from birth within (i.e. even at birth she is seed within seed: hence the reference to "begotten not made" in John's gospel: all humans are "begotten not made" and "placed" within the female's womb as opposed to the male which manufactures semen i.e. semen is "made"). In other words, we are all "of Creator" in the physical: as "woman" was born with the eggs: they were not made by chemicals during our earth walk as a man's semen is. Just as in our spiritual Journey, where we need "inspiration" (seminal flash or Lightning Bolt) from Creator to bring productive energies to our spiritual labors, the female needs the semenal flash (i.e. human semen) to bring fertility to her seed to be able to reproduce: to Co-Create and bring forth the Creation. In that respect, the Warrior Woman to me represents both that striving to return to Wisdom and the battles that we all fight (whether male or female) on that Journey: at least in a spiritual sense. The Serpent is therefore like a talisman or totem for that Journey: a representation of Inner Will. In that respect in the outer world the Warrior Women's strength would be an internal or "inner strength" rather than an outward show of strength: the kinda strength I saw in my grand-mother's as I related early in this thread.

But it would also speak of the "battle" for survival of our race and of Creator's plan for the Creation generally: in that it is woman that carries the seed. But the serpent also represents that reproductive ability: the snake sheds it's skin and a new skin is already formed beneath: a woman gives birth to a female child and that female child already has her eggs within: at birth. Hence why I believe the ancients knew more about human biology than we give them credit for: the Bible (and the knowledge it was based on from the earlier serpent cults) speak of all this. The carvings on Neolithic monuments often show three spirals: and it takes approximately three months for a man to produce semen; and nine months is the approximately period of gestation for a human child: three in one: denoting that such monuments were birthing chambers. Venus must have been considered the Mother as most of the tunnels (fallopian tube/uterus?) to these monuments are (or where at the time of building) aligned to and allow Venus' light to shine down them when she is/was in her the role as Morning Star (an epithet later taken on by Lucifer: reference to "The Fall" again).

But going one step further with that last point, those same monuments have other alignments or rather other features in the landscape have other alignments: and those alignments are to Sirius, the Pleiades and Orion (amongst others): the "gods" and "star-seeders" of the ancient world. It's my guess that different "birthing-chambers" or temples were used according to which class of child was to required: king, warrior, prophet, craftsman (magi) as noted in some ancient societies I have come across (think the Indian caste system that still exists to this day or the British class system). Moses and other such biblical characters are noted as living hundreds of years: it wasn't one person, but a dynasty whereby the originator would be die, go to their family god's star, and be called back to an earth walk to be reborn at the pertinent time of year for the particular class of person. In that respect, I can see how a warrior woman could be born in the physical: unless the ancients had a system for telling whether an unborn child was male or female: if a warrior ancestor came back as a female, then presumably she would become a warrior: though I suspect in such a situation that they might wait till the following year for the ancestor to be reborn: as in the case of a king, a female child would previously have been chosen to be his bride as she was

more important. Interestingly I have never come across a similar hierarchy for women: the hierarchy has always been in association with men: but thinking about the answer to the question "who does the Grail serve?" the Grail Knight must ask the Grail (wounded) King and the latter's answer "the feminine" it seems to me that the four classes of men are there to serve the feminine: to assist in her "battle" to bring forward the Creation. As to DNA: I can't see the ancients knew those secrets: I'm not saying they did not, just that I think it unlikely: in which case the only similarity is the double-helix shape: but then again, where did they get that shape?

CinnamonMoon:
Hey Wolfie,

“I can see your point here: and to me this speaks of Darwin funnily enough: in that my view on the Darwin v God debate is that God created the "blueprint" and set it in motion and evolution did the rest according to the blueprint. Maybe that blueprint was DNA? But according to that rule, then yeh, I can see what you mean: that what occurred in the ethereal worlds would repeat here. However, in that case, the Matriarchal age had to "fall" to bring forward the Patriarchal: which must itself eventually "fall" but my guess would be that we would need another era of the Matriarchal before the next era could come forward.”

I don't see that as cyclic in that light. And this may just be my take on the understanding but from what I've been shown it stops with the wild swing of the pendulum between the two. I believe we've seen the extremes and the contrary of both and that in this time of global chaos we will see the rise of the sacred masculine and feminine together as the solution through their Union that restores the balance. Both are needed.

“To me the Snake also represents DNA striving for the perfection of the blueprint. In Kabbalah it is the upward reaching force on the Tree (as opposed to the lightning bolt that comes down the tree): and is feminine in nature.”

I agree, I think the role of the Serpent is mighty and many-layered. You've pointed one out here. It makes perfect sense to me.

Now it is here that I stated: "Woman feels the spirit within speaking to her, she shares her Knowing with Man and Man in his cunning responds…the subconscious (man) must pass through the conscious (woman) to get to the supra-conscious (Raphael's shared wisdom of the Light)." And you replied: “To me the male is consciousness, the feminine subconscious and Spirit/our spirit the Super-conscious, so I am interested in understanding your comments here: we are conscious and we delve the subconscious (Within) to reach the Superconscious Self or Spirit or so it seems to me.”

It was my choice of wording and I apologize as it may not fit the academic terminology so probably did come across as confusing. What I meant is that Eve represents the consciousness of the spirit Within and the connection to Creation. Adam represents the physical consciousness of man, his need to see Creation through woman. He may fertilize those eggs but she's got the basket and lays them in it. Raphael's presence to me is the Supra-consciousness…the Higher Awareness or understanding of Universal Law/Cosmic Consciousness that enlightens her. So that's where my choice of words came from. Eve looks to Raphael for guidance, it is granted to her so she can then share that with Adam who looks to her for it in a similar manner. She's the vessel that receives the enlightenment, the fertilized knowledge and passes it through the form of the Sacred Child into the world...and Adam sees to it that it is safe and secure and fashioned to fit the within the world order. Does that make more sense?

I further stated: "While human love is part of this it is through Eve that the Sacred Love is understood and brought forth." And you replied:

“Now this is interesting: as I associate Love with the feminine more than the masculine, though why I've never understood.”

I just wanted to clarify that this is Eve or could even be seen as the Virgin Mary in this light…all things are born of Woman, she is the Grail, the vessel that brings forth Creation through the Sacred Child. Love is present in both a masculine and feminine form...they're not exclusive, just different expressions of it. As a father for example, love is shown by providing, protecting, and seeing to the needs of the family as a whole. As a mother it is provided by tending the home and nurturing of the family while the father is away. Together, at night (proverbially) they share that love with their family together. Love is both masculine and feminine. IMHO

Finally I'd said: "The temptation (Battle of the Ages with the demons Within us) is the battle between what is sacred and profane and the card represents that choice being Adam's." and you replied: “Which I presume is because it is the masculine that brings forth the seed of the feminine: i.e. the active masculine brings forth what is felt Within by the feminine out into the world of form? In that case, it is the masculine that brings forth what the feminine has felt and decided: and the masculine must decide whether to bring that influence out into the world?”

In a spiritual sense yes, because she understands that knowledge that Raphael is sharing enough to explain why it needs to be brought into the world. Therefore Adam/Man would comprehend the need for the physical actions of the masculine forces needed to manifest. I think this ties us right back into why the Union between the Sacred Feminine and Masculine are so important and why there is so much chaos in the world as it stands today. The standards that battle against each other need to be married through that understanding being shared. They're to work together not against one and other. There is no greater side, no one side to rule, they rule as the King and Queen do…with love for all those in their care, it's through their Union that what is sacred can be given life and they both share the role of nurturing and protecting that Sacred Child…humanity, the Oneness whatever that case may be.

Crow:
Watch Isabel Allende’s video on “What Being a Warrior Woman Is All About”… She’s on TED.

DragonHawk:
I think the notion of passion and of "only a fearless and determined heart" succeeding that she speaks of is Truth: the woman in the prison cell who carries on holding her daughter to prevent her being raped despite having a gun pointed at her head is, to me, the true face of the Warrior Women: preserving life.

But then she speaks of feminism and pretty much falls into the traps that the British Feminist Movement fell into.

She speaks of evidence of women creating prosperity and this assisting to make the village, the area and the country prosperous: more or less confirming the western model of consumerism I spoke about in M2's thread that has led the world, over the last century, to where we are now: a world she thinks needs to change. Wealth creation is not to me the answer to the world's problems: it is the problem in many cases. Education to me is a means of changing our world. Stop all the bureaucratic nonsense that serves only those who control the means of production and education does not have to be expensive.

She speaks of women in positions of authority: but in the western consumerist age those women who have reached postions of authority have done so through their male energy and have not brought their feminine energies to bear on our world. They have exploited others as much as any man. Rodick, the founder of Body Shop, is often cited as a model of feminist success: but she has exploited women the world over by playing on women's insecurities about their looks, animal testing etc. to become very rich herself when she sold the company. We have had female councilors in my town for many years and female mayors: but nothing has changed. We have had a female Prime Minister. If you are talking about change, I think one thing that does need to change is for the feminist movement to stop telling women to want to be like men.

CinnamonMoon:
And then some, go Isabelle! And DH, here in the US women are not being told to be like men, they're stepping into their own power as women, it's a slow process. I think what you're experiencing now in the UK is what we had here in the 70's. Just MHO. Here women rising to power are striving for equality with men in the sense of equal pay and respect, but to be like a man is not asked of us. That equality is part of the balance needed. Once achieved the nurturing side of the feminine is free to take over, right now she’s (proverbially) fighting to survive.

Wynsong:
Funny, I didn't hear her say that women should be more like men. Maybe it is just my ears. And to be truthful, I didn't hear her talking much about Western society at all, but the greater majority of the world population in which feminism is still a concept that needs some embracing...That women are people...as a start, not property.

Maybe my perspective is different, and so what I heard is not hearable by all other people. I will state here now, though for those who haven't already guessed...I'm a feminist, and proud to be one. I do not see myself as the problem (and of course I could be wrong about that). I chose to stay home to raise my children, because feminism includes that. I chose to nurture elderly people in my family, because feminism includes that. I'm also a humanist...so I hold true to the idea that all people are persons. ...no matter how small, to quote Dr. Suess.

I'm just going to add here, as an aside... That psychology has shown pretty clearly, that in an oppressive situation...anywhere... That the oppressor is usually woefully ignorant of the least little detail of the oppressed way of life and being... And the oppressed usually knows everything about how the oppressor lives... Because of course, the oppressed are usually the unseen doing the minutia of the oppressor's life. Just an aside... I think it speaks a bit to the old wisdom of "Walking a mile in a person's shoes."

WhiteCrow:
Wynn, I love what you wrote about being a feminist. DH, My first thought was "Please, get off the soapbox. It's getting tiresome", but then I realized that this clearly is an issue for you - something you have still not resolved within yourself. I can only assume that, because you listened to all the words Isabel spoke and yet never heard a thing. I'd be interested to see what you would write if you could go back and listen with an open heart and a mind empty of preconceptions. It is only when a person (woman, man or child) feels utterly unheard that they start shouting. It is only when a person feels utterly trapped that they start fighting to be free.

A friend sent me a link today which showed me a side to this topic that spans both misogyny and warrior women. If you read to the end you'll see one of the links is "Lawyers serving Warriors". What could be more perfect to both topics than that? Back from Combat, Women struggle for acceptance FROM HERE

Nobody wants to buy them a beer.

Even near military bases, female veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't often offered a drink on the house as a welcome home.

More than 230,000 American women have fought in those recent wars and at least 120 have died doing so, yet the public still doesn't completely understand their contributions on the modern battlefield.

For some, it's a lonely transition as they struggle to find their place.

Aimee Sherrod, an Air Force veteran who did three war tours, said years went by when she didn't tell people she was a veteran. After facing sexual harassment during two tours and mortar attacks in Iraq, the 29-year-old mother of two from Bells, Tenn., was medically discharged in 2005 with post-traumatic stress disorder.

She's haunted by nightmares and wakes up some nights thinking she's under attack. She's moody as a result of PTSD and can't function enough to work or attend college. Like some other veterans, she felt she improperly received a low disability rating by the Department of Veterans Affairs that left her with a token monthly payment. She was frustrated that her paperwork mentioned she was pregnant, a factor she thought was irrelevant.

"I just gave up on it and I didn't tell anyone about ever being in the military because I was so ashamed over everything," Sherrod said.

Then Jo Eason, a Nashville, Tenn., lawyer working pro bono through the Lawyers Serving Warriors program, stepped in a few years later and Sherrod began taking home a heftier monthly disability payment.

"I've never regretted my military service, I'm glad I did it," Sherrod said. "I'm not ashamed of my service. I'm ashamed to try and tell people about it because it's like, well, why'd you get out? All the questions that come with it."

The Defense Department bars women from serving in assignments where the primary mission is to engage in direct ground combat. But the nature of the recent conflicts, with no clear front lines, puts women in the middle of the action, in roles such as military police officers, pilots, drivers and gunners on convoys. In addition to the 120-plus deaths, more than 650 women have been wounded.

Back home, women face many of the same issues as the men, but the personal stakes may be greater.

Female service members have much higher rates of divorce and are more likely to be a single parent. When they do seek help at VA medical centers, they are screening positive at a higher rate for military sexual trauma, meaning they indicated experiencing sexual harassment, assault or rape. Some studies have shown that female veterans are at greater risk for homelessness.

Former Army Sgt. Kayla Williams, an Iraq veteran who has written about her experience, said she was surprised by the response she and other women from the 101st Airborne Division received from people in Clarksville, Tenn., near Fort Campbell, Ky.

She said residents just assumed they were girlfriends or wives of military men.

"People didn't come up to us and thank us for our service in the same way. They didn't give us free beers in bars in the same way when we first got back," said Williams, 34, of Ashburn, Va. "Even if you're vaguely aware of it, it still colors how you see yourself in some ways."

Genevieve Chase, 32, of Alexandria, Va., a staff sergeant in the Army Reserves, said the same guys who were her buddies in Afghanistan didn't invite her for drinks later on because their wives or girlfriends wouldn't approve.

"One of the hardest things that I had to deal with was, being a woman, was losing my best friends or my comrades to their families," Chase said.

It was that sense of loss, she said, that led her to get together with some other female veterans for brunch in New York last year. The group has evolved into the American Women Veterans, which now has about 2,000 online supporters, some of whom go on camping trips and advocate for veterans' issues. About a dozen marched in this year's Veteran's Day parade in New York.

"We just want to know that when we come home, America has our back," Chase said. "That's the biggest thing. Women are over there. You want to feel like you're coming home to open arms, rather than to a public that doesn't acknowledge you for what you've just done and what you just sacrificed."

Rachel McNeill, a gunner during hostile convoys in Iraq, said she was so affected by the way people treated her when they learned she fought overseas that she even started to question whether she was a veteran.

She described the attitudes as "Oh, you didn't do anything or you were just on base," said McNeill, who suffers from post-concussive headaches, ringing in her ears, and other health problems related to roadside bomb blasts. The 25-year-old from Hollandale, Wis., was a sergeant in the Army Reserves.

She said she seemingly even got that response when she told the VA staff in Madison, Wis., of her work. She said she was frustrated to see in her VA paperwork how what she told them had been interpreted.

"It would say like, 'the patient rode along on convoys,' like I was just a passenger in the back seat," McNeill said.

Other women have had similar complaints. The VA leadership has said it recognizes it needs to do more to improve care for these veterans, and as part of changes in the works, female coordinators are in place at each medical center to give women an advocate. The agency is also reviewing comments on a proposal to make it easier for those who served in noninfantry roles - including women - to qualify for disability benefits for PTSD.

Sen. Patty Murray, a member of the Senate Veterans' Affairs committee, recently asked VA Secretary Eric Shinseki and Defense Secretary Robert Gates to ensure that service members' combat experience is included on their military discharge papers, so later they can get benefits they are entitled to.

Research has shown that a lack of validation of a soldier's service can make their homecoming more difficult.

"What worries me is that women themselves still don't see themselves as veterans, so they don't get the care they need for post-traumatic stress syndrome or traumatic brain injury or even sexual assault, which obviously is more unique to women, so we still have a long ways to go," said Murray, D-Wash.

Chase said one challenge is getting female veterans to ask for changes.

"Most of us, because we were women service members, are so used to not complaining and not voicing our issues, because in the military that's considered weak. Nobody wants to hear the girl whine," Chase said.

McNeill said that when she's been out at restaurants and bars with the guys in her unit, they make sure she gets some recognition when the free beers go around.

"They'll make a point ... usually to say, 'She was over there with us, she was right next to us,'" McNeill said.

***

And my mom reminded me this morning... My great-great Aunt served in three wars and was given the Croix de Guerre, by France for her efforts in World War 1. How did she end up in battles at the turn of the century? She had an affair. and her husband found out and divorced her. The entire family disowned her. This was in the 1890s - no rights for women back then! She wasn't even allowed to see her son ever again (he was 10). She made a new and amazing life for herself, at a time when such things were unthinkable. She was amazing, her sister was just as amazing - she smuggled arms for Northern Ireland. Wild brave warrior women. I'd forgotten them till today.

Wynsong:
Nice to know you have Wild Women Warrior roots White Crow. You'll be able to access that energy, now that you remember them.

WhiteCrow:
It is. She reminds me too how easy we have things nowadays. We forget what it was like for our ancestresses, our grandmothers and mothers even. Small steps, but we are getting there!

Wynsong:
We are...when we remember to keep stepping, and don't think we can just rest on their laurels.

WhiteCrow:
Very true. We lose what we take for granted.

DragonHawk:
Crow “It is only when a person feels utterly trapped that they start fighting to be free.” Do you understand what you are seeking to break free from? The clue seems to lie in what you wrote about your experiences in Africa in Wyn's misogyny thread: but it is not misogyny

WhiteCrow:
Why do you ask such an odd question? I have no desire to break free from misogyny. I want to stop it.

Wynsong:
I don't have a problem with that question, because I believe we are drawn to post in threads in which we have energetic issues or ties. I also believe that we tend to teach what we need to learn, so even when I go into a thread and I feel like I'm sharing my experience, I'm aware that whatever I'm sharing still has life for me....at some level, and I like to explore that. So I would ask myself, and therefore anyone else by proxy... What is the tie that binds you to a journey/this topic (not specifically this topic, but any of them that resonate with you? What is the personal aspect of the journey that is still in shadow? I almost always take a thread I'm passionate about here or on any forum, to my journal, to find the compassion that I'm looking for, often for myself, within the stories I still carry around the topic. Just the way I journey, and find what it is I need to journey.

Dragonhawk, I wondered at your statement... “but it is not misogyny.”

What makes you so sure you can define misogyny so definitively that you can state what is and what is not. I get that you may have an opinion on whether you think something is misogynist, but I do have some issue with you defining it for me. I'll take this part, back to the misogyny thread.

WhiteCrow:
DH and Wynn, Thanks first to Wynn for explaining things clearer. I was wondering how the question related to being a Warrior, since this post is about the Warrior Woman aspect.

“Do you understand what you are seeking to break free from? The clue seems to lie in what you wrote about your experiences in Africa in Wyn's misogyny thread: but it is not misogyny.”

To use Wyn's explanation... “I don't have a problem with that question, because I believe we are drawn to post in threads in which we have energetic issues or ties.”

Ok, so you're meaning that ties me to the Warrior Woman, what I seek to be free of? I seek to be free of being nice. Wow. I first put "I seek to be free of dominance and needing to excuse myself to others", but as I wrote it out I realized I had it all wrong. Thank you DH, for asking - and thank you Wynn, for making me understand what was being asked.

“I also believe that we tend to teach what we need to learn, so even when I go into a thread and I feel like I'm sharing my experience, I'm aware that whatever I'm sharing still has life for me....at some level, and I like to explore that….What is the tie that binds you to a journey/this topic (not specifically this topic, but any of them that resonate with you?”

Being nice. Not standing up for myself because I must take care of the feelings of others first. I must be polite. I mustn't make waves. I must not be a disappointment. That's a huge fear I have been aware of for years - being a disappointment. The Warrior Woman thread was started by me originally, after I fell apart when someone stole something from me. I did literally fall apart. My blood pressure went so high my doctor had to put me on tablets. The reason? Because the man who stole from me tried to make me feel guilty for getting angry. The more I accused him... the more he told me how "not NICE" I was. I had only two choices - back down or keep on being not nice. I actually wanted to back down, because being not nice was killing me off, but my family wouldn't let me. It did eventually take legal action to sort it out. I was considered very, very, NOT NICE by this man. I realized... I can survive not being nice. I can survive being a disappointment.

“What is the personal aspect of the journey that is still in shadow?”

The being a warrior is still something I'm struggling with, although I'm not quite sure about the shadows here yet. I still don't see myself as a warrior. I still have some negative self-imagery of myself as a coward to work through. In the past I needed to be fire or ice in order to do the "not nice" act. Now I'm finding the middle way - being me standing up for me, without fire or ice. It's an interesting journey.

“I almost always take a thread I'm passionate about here or on any forum, to my journal, to find the compassion that I'm looking for, often for myself, within the stories I still carry around the topic.”

comPASSION. Namaste

“Do you understand what you are seeking to break free from? The clue seems to lie in what you wrote about your experiences in Africa in Wyn's misogyny thread: but it is not misogyny.”

DH, I was watching TV thinking about this and I realized it does fit this thread. Thank you for pushing me to look again. Yes, the clue was there, but I had to sit with it and go over each story. My passion, what binds me to both posts, lies in the frustration and voicelessness. In all of those personal stories I was voiceless - either because I was too polite, too much a "lady" or just too cowardly. I didn't push through those men at the bar. I didn't tell the dads drinking beer what I really thought of them. I backed off. I stood mute. I was a victim. That's the biggy - I saw myself as a victim. I relate to the victim in the stories. That's why I protect others, because in a weird way that's easier than protecting myself. Because protecting others is an acceptable female role. It can be labelled "MATERNAL INSTINCT" or "Mothering". It's only protecting yourself that is not usually seen as feminine. That's why the misogyny post bit hard - because it relates to my protectiveness and my inability to protect myself.

Wynsong:
((((White Crow))))

DragonHawk:
Wynsong, “What makes you so sure you can define misogyny so definitively that you can state what is and what is not.”

There was no attempt to define misogyny Wyn: I just know that I am not a misogynist: so I knew that that was not why Crow and I were locking horns on the issue. But I did know what the issue was: and it does relate to the feminine for me: and what I learnt out in the UAE. Crow, “That's the biggy - I saw myself as a victim. I relate to the victim in the stories.”

And you showed me that in your post about your experiences in Africa. You were in part right when you spoke about my mother. She instilled that model of victimhood in me. I learnt that model from her. But I learnt a new notion of the feminine out in the AUE: from a number of sources: form Jaguar, from the native Islamic women, who, unlike their Pakistani and African counterparts in Britain, are far from a shrinking violets at the beck and call of men, but strong women who are proud of their femininity and have the men dancing around like love-struck puppies or forlorn rebels without a cause when the women are not around.

Far from the notions of women in Islam we hold in the west, women are revered and know it. But I saw it most and owned my own feminine free of that victimhood in the Mother spirit I met in the desert Blame was a slip in this thread, but it alerted me to the effect of victimhood: blame. We blame when we are playing victim. I don't hate women: and you know this. What I hate is victimhood: being a victim and it was my mother who instilled this model in me. But I don't hate her: I do hate that she cannot move out of that victim way of thinking or rather I did. Now I just see it as who she is and at 73 something that is unlikely to change. It provokes the same reaction in her as it does in you: recourse to insults and attacks rather than argument: which from my own experience is to avoid the pain of feeling a victim: attack being the best form of defense. Throughout this year I have moved slowly to a point of calm: where I no longer allow other people's opinions/issues/attacks to be an issue for me: were I decide to act rather than feel compelled to react because I feel under attack. I no longer feel under attack, even after I put up a post questioning Feminism on a board where the majority of members are women. I saw the attacks flying in but I did not feel attacked. I think in a way I was testing my own ability to be free of victimhood: though even at the time of posting my first post on the subject I had not realized that this was about victimhood.

I knew after Wyn pulled me up about the word blame that there was a relation to blaming my mother for instilling a feeling of anger in me: that revolved around my relationship (or lack thereof) with my father that I now understand to as a result of her own victimhood with respect to her relationship with my father that meant I grew up without a model of the masculine: models of which I also found in the UAE. When you attacked me in the summer I knew that I was not reacting but coming from a much more considered point of view than in January (which i did feel as an attack btw), but I still responded as I think that, even though we don't feel attacked, sometimes we need to lay down boundary lines. You had crossed my new boundaries and I needed to let you know that. I did not yet feel strong enough to totally let your attacks go and attacked back: but as an action not a reaction: a big change for me in the face of such an attack. When you attacked here, I felt no real compulsion to attack back.

I explained why I held the point of view I held. I cannot allow myself to believe that you really believe that if a woman attacks a women it is bullying but if a man does it is misogyny? If so to me you are exhibiting an emotional attachment to outcomes that is subjectively biased: or as I put it in that thread your comments are "emotionally charged". "not least of which" is simply a turn of phrase and had no deep meaning other than something you chose to project onto it. So where you believe I was attacking you in that thread I was not. But in the summer I was not there yet: the assimilation period of my UAE Journey was only in its "experience" phase: it had not yet come to Wisdom as it has done since my trip to Ireland where I see now the Death that occurred was a death to victimhood. I have to thank you for your post on your African experiences as that is where I realized what had changed. I saw your victimhood in that post and realized it was no longer my issue.

You said somewhere earlier this year that you were seeking a new model of the feminine. I wonder if that model is the model of the empowered feminine rather than the victim model that many women (and I say many, not all) have taken on board? I make no comment about men taking on a victim role as this is about the feminine, but would be happy to discuss that in the Sacred Masculine forum. DH's message at the start of the year was true, but in the contrary. A Shadow Teacher as I said at the time: inspired perhaps by your own interpretation of my Journey? I wondered if you saw what happened to me in the UAE as a retribution, whereas I saw it as a release At that time i did not know from what, but I realize now it was a release from victimhood. I had to assimilate the Journey, but I knew something had changed. I had wondered for a long time what we were mirroring to each other: but now I feel the victim role is what is it was.

WhiteCrow:
DH, “I just know that I am not a misogynist: so I knew that that was not why Crow and I were locking horns on the issue.”

Well, for me that part was, and still is, about the tone of your writing. You used at least two subtle "put downs" in the misogyny post. Your implications, although mild in your eyes, took away the voice of all the women who you felt had been overly emotional. Maybe it was not misogyny, but it was still insulting, and you still haven't really replied to that issue on the misogynist post.

You know a simple, "Sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting." would have ended that misunderstanding in one sentence. Do you fear apologizing? Do you think it weakens or demeans you? Do you think you can only apologize when you know you are "wrong"? You can still acknowledge that you hurt someone, even if you know it wasn't your fault. You can acknowledge you stepped on someone's foot, even if it was an accident and both of you know the pain wasn't deliberate.

Without that your words about the women being "emotionally charged" merely become another clueless male "not getting it" when a woman tries to make him understand that his actions or words are not acceptable.

This is why women become emotional. We become that way when we feel frustrated and voiceless and although a part of that is our choice and under our control, a lot of it isn't. As Isabel Allende said, the truth is that even the weakest poorest man has two creatures below him he can abuse - weaker women and children. This is a fact of the physical - women are not as strong as men. It is why there are separate events in sports. Women are physically weaker. We only have our voices and when anyone tries to demean or belittle our voice... we risk losing everything.

I have also stood up and spoken... and not been heard. Regularly. Because in each case I was standing up and speaking to people who refused to hear, or could not hear beyond their own egos. Can you listen to others and acknowledge their words and their journeys, DH? Can you go back and try to understand why the women you called "charged" may have felt diminished by your words? Can you deal with that or will you hide from it, or deny it?

“That's the biggy - I saw myself as a victim. I relate to the victim in the stories.”… “And you showed me that in your post about your experiences in Africa.”

Yes, I did. Thank you for making me go back and see that. I hadn't realized I feared being "not nice" so much. It is a classic female complaint. I was brought up to be a "lady" - which meant being considerate, putting others first, being nice, polite. You suck it up and smile graciously... and inside you weep. It's no way to live - not for any living creature.

It is still about misogyny in the cases I mentioned. The fact I was playing the victim does not instantly mean the men weren't misogynists. That's the big issue for women with men like this - feeling the unheard victim. The voicelessness is what drives you crazy - men just laughing you off or not even realizing they are not hearing you. The voicelessness of never being taken seriously. Never having your words and emotions respected. It's a demeaning continual erosion.

But yes, voicelessness is an issue beyond gender for me. I can vividly remember hating school for the same reason and all my teachers were women. My dad makes me feel that way too, but I worked through that in my 20s. I made him listen by scaring the life out of him. If no-one listens... you have to "shout". They give you no choice. I must add here that my dad is neither a misogynist nor a bully. He's just remarkably dense at times. And he kept saying, "You're just a worry wart. There's no problem." until I hate to pretty much shove his face into the problem to get him to see it. My dad never believed in intuition. He believed in logic. He doesn't any more, but it took us a few really magnificent arguments to get him to stop and look at my way of accessing information through intuition and emotion.

“You were in part right when you spoke about my mother. She instilled that model of victimhood in me. I learnt that model from her.”

I'm truly glad this thread has been of use to you as well. Thank you for sharing your feelings and experience with your parents. You've done amazing work through figuring it out.

“it alerted me to the effect of victimhood: blame. We blame when we are playing victim.”

True, but we also blame when we know who needs to be blamed. You must be careful there. If I point a finger at a rapist and say, "He is the abuser." I may be the victim... but he still is the abuser. Some victims do blame everyone and anyone, but someone using their common sense and intuition should be able to see the difference between false blame (based on resentment, fear or weakness) and real blame - based on truth. And another thing you need to be aware of - you might not do it, but misogynists do use this against women. They imply the woman's accusations are based on "silly" emotions or weaknesses within the woman. They belittle her viewpoint and take away her voice.

“I don't hate women: and you know this.”

Oh I agree. I don't think you hate women. I think, like many men, you don't listen to women. You run on your preconceptions of "WOMAN" instead of taking time to sit and listen to women. If I'm wrong, please do prove it by going back to the misogyny thread and listening to what many women there (all those you labelled "emotionally charged") are really saying.

“It provokes the same reaction in her as it does in you: recourse to insults and attacks rather than argument:”

Pardon??? Where have I used insults and attacks? Please point these out and I will deal with it, but don't make an accusation without proof. That is a classic misogynist tactic - part of the belittling a woman's thoughts and feelings.

I don't feel belittled by you, but I am flabbergasted. Yes, I told you how I felt and what I thought. If that hurt your feelings - I apologize for that. It was never my intention to hurt you. I said what I needed to say and there was no ulterior motive behind that.

BUT I must be honest - I was annoyed with you was when you dismissed the entire speech Isabel Allende made with a few comments that had nothing to do with what she said or meant. That did frustrate and anger me. It wasn't personal. I would have said that to anyone who reacted to her as you did, but I do know I was sharp there. I have no regrets about that, but I do apologize if you found it hurtful.

I found your "take" on her wonderful wit and wisdom hurtful. It seemed as if you dashed in merely to criticize and find fault in the entire thing. I should have merely told you I was hurt, so that you could have apologized and we could have moved on. I apologize for that now. Next time I will be emotionally honest. I think I feared you would dismiss me if I said your reaction was hurtful. So I did the warrior instead of the vulnerable. There is a huge difference between vulnerable and victim. A warrior woman can be vulnerable, a victim cannot. I needed reminding of that.

Next time I will be more honest and tell you when you insult or hurt me. But as to "insults and attacks rather than argument" - No, I did not do that. As much as I regret having to say this again, it does still feel like you have your own private "soapbox" and it is getting tiresome. Why do I make you feel a victim? It's not my intention, so it can only be coming from you. Are you willing to work through that with me here? I'm more than willing to work with you. Seriously. I would be honored to work with you so that you can let this go.

“I no longer feel under attack, even after I put up a post questioning Feminism on a board where the majority of members are women. I saw the attacks flying in but I did not feel attacked.”

But you didn't ask yourself why they attacked you? You assumed you knew. You assumed, even after several of them told you otherwise, that your viewpoint were more true than their feelings/words. By doing that you stripped every woman there of her voice - another classic frustration related to misogynists.

Please note - I do NOT think you are a misogynist. I merely think you are talking and acting like one. There is a difference - it's called ignorance or lack of understanding. That is not an attack or an insult - it is an observation. If it hurts... ask yourself why it is being said. Because I'm not saying it in anger and it is not meant as an attack.

Because part of letting go of being a victim, for me, happened when I was forced to be "not nice" in May this year. It was a horrible experience, but I got through it, as I did with two others in the last 18 months. Both the others were women who have other issues, which is why I couldn't use them as an example for misogyny.

“When you attacked me in the summer I knew that I was not reacting but coming from a much more considered point of view than in January (which i did feel as an attack btw), but I still responded as I think that, even though we don't feel attacked, sometimes we need to lay down boundary lines. You had crossed my new boundaries and I needed to let you know that. I did not yet feel strong enough to totally let your attacks go and attacked back: but as an action not a reaction: a big change for me in the face of such an attack.”

January? I have no recollection of that, so can't comment. If it still hurts so much, could you please inbox me on it so we can fix it. As for summer - No, I didn't "attack" you in summer. I told you how I felt. How you had hurt my feelings. I did reach explosion point and I did let it all out, but it was a release, not an attack. The fact you felt attacked was not my intention, but I don't expect you to understand that yet. Maybe someday? I hope so.

It really is ok, because the moment I told you how I felt (got it off my chest) I felt such a freedom and release. I haven't felt angry or voiceless since then. It was a huge moment of freedom for me and I am so grateful to Cinn for letting me run with that. I didn't need to have you hear - I needed to SAY it. I needed to feel I had a voice - that I wasn't a victim. I knew you wouldn't get it at that time - you weren't ready to hear it, but I still needed to say it. That's ok. Can you now please let that go? It's over for me, why isn't it over for you?

“When you attacked here, I felt no real compulsion to attack back. I explained why I held the point of view I held. I cannot allow myself to believe that you really believe that if a woman attacks a women it is bullying but if a man does it is misogyny? If so to me you are exhibiting an emotional attachment to outcomes that is subjectively biased: or as I put it in that thread your comments are "emotionally charged". "not least of which" is simply a turn of phrase and had no deep meaning other than something you chose to project onto it. So where you believe I was attacking you in that thread I was not.”

No, you didn't. You never explained why you reacted so negatively to Isabel Allende. The rest you speak about was on the misogyny post. I did not attack you there, not my intention anyway. I told you how I felt and what I thought. If that offends you... I haven't a clue what to say. What do you say to someone who tells you your true self offends them? I am sorry you feel my self is offensive to you. I can't change that, but I do apologize for unintentionally harming you. I cannot be left voiceless once again. I'm not doing the victim anymore. If you can't cope with a woman being honest to you... that is your issue, not mine, but I do regret that it hurts you. And since we are being honest - Your implications with the "emotionally charged", under the circumstances of the post theme, was offensive to all the women you labelled as such, but I as the only one you picked out and named personally. I do think you need to sit with the fact that although you see my reacting to that as an attack you do not see your reacting to me as an attack.

If I were to take this as a lesson, as you pointed out to me with the Africa/victim thing, I'd add: “Why does it offend you so much? Why do you see this as an attack? What passion keeps bringing you back to me, DH? Why am I your focus here?”

PS…I forgot the mirroring comment. I knew right away what Sol meant, which is why I had to laugh at his wicked wisdom. I am sorry at how clumsily I handled telling that to you. You weren't ready to hear it and I rushed in and stepped all over your "feet" in my enthusiasm. I owe you an apology for that. I always was clumsy, another reason I've been voiceless at times - tact is not natural to me, alas! LOL

DragonHawk:
Crow, I have read your post. I acknowledge it, but in all honesty I do not feel a need to reply in detail except on a few points.

“I hadn't realized I feared being "not nice" so much. It is a classic female complaint. I was brought up to be a "lady" - which meant being considerate, putting others first, being nice, polite. You suck it up and smile graciously... and inside you weep. It's no way to live - not for any living creature.”

I can't help but feel that words like "nice" or "not nice" are not choices I associate with the word victim and release from it. To me the word "struggle" relates to victim and although I would not have immediately come up with it "strength" is given as struggle's antonym at Wiki Answers. Strength is what I have felt this year. The Strength not to need to struggle or fight.

“Why do I make you feel a victim?”

From my experience, because you choose to feel that way: as I might have at one time. Nothing you have said hurt me here Crow as I choose not be feel hurt. I have to say though that in my opinion the fact that you have made an assumption I may be hurt by something you say implies a hidden intent, but a desire to appear beyond reproach in that intent: whether that is a conscious thing or not I don't know. I think it relates to impeccability. One thing I would say about some of your posts, particularly in the misogyny thread: you appear to be trying to create a story about me: as if to paint me out to be someone who I am not: making sometimes quite surreal statements such as the one about the fact I did not know that the proper term for women haters was misogyny meaning I was not aware of the issue. Why? Do you need me to be someone other than who I am to suit your own story? That's what it feels like Crow. There is something here about owning our own feelings and issues as I can see that a lot of the things you are accusing me in this (and other posts either in this thread or in other threads on related issues) are not mine to own: Perhaps this is why I feel no hurt in your opinions nor feel a need to defend myself in light of them: I have learnt to understand what is mine and what is not: and I don't accept what is not now.

I have no problem with apologizing: but just because I do not agree with you (or anyone else for that matter), does not mean I should apologize for my opinion. Just because you (or anyone else) seems to need to believe I am a misogynist (or anything else for that matter) or behave like one, is not a reason, in my opinion, for me to have need to apologize.

“You weren't ready to hear it and I rushed in and stepped all over your "feet" in my enthusiasm.”

The message was for you. The issue for me was that you stated that events in my Journey to the UAE were a retribution: when I saw it as quite the opposite by the time you sent that message. You were projecting something onto my Journey: that is what angered me. It is something I have said to you before you do a lot. Something you are doing here again by trying to make me out to be a misogynist or exhibit misogynist behaviors. Now, as then, the issue around misogyny is a projection: and part of your Journey. My issue on these topics is the victim issue. And the notion of victim ties in with what I have felt from day one on the topic of the Warrior Woman. To me the victim mentality it is what makes the difference between a true Warrior Women: (women such as my grandmothers) and a women who fights because she is hurting to avoid the pain of the hurt: projecting that hurt onto those around her: instead of going within to resolve the hurt: the Contrary Warrior Women.

“or could not hear beyond their own egos.”

You might want to re-read some of your recent posts to me and notice how you use ego: for instance:

“You've done amazing work through figuring it out.”

Was this meant to sound as condescending as it actually sounds?

“It seemed as if you dashed in merely to criticize and find fault in the entire thing”

I hardly dashed in. I have been contributing to this thread for quite some time. I find your comments here another example of you trying to "paint a story" again Crow. I do find fault with the entire thing: because to me she is pushing women towards the economic model of womanhood: a model I have watched female friends who have followed that high-powered business-women model suffer badly for: I have sat at the other end of the phone for three or four hours at a time whilst one of them sobbed her heart out having realized too late the shallowness of that path in terms of her needs as a woman. I have listened for similar periods of time after she has returned from her "Women in Business" group with similar stories about the women she has met. I do listen to women Crow: I listen a lot harder than you listen to me. But that's your choice not mine: mine is to carry on walking my path. I think I have worked through what I needed in this thread and am ready to carry on that walk. I don't feel the need to go anywhere and write anything else on this subject just because you tell me I must to prove something. I have not need of such and feel I have nothing to prove.

No-one can silence us unless we choose to be silent Crow: man woman or child. That may or may not have been the case in the past: but we are not living in the past. We are living in the Now. So no, my words have not silenced anyone unless they have chosen to be silent. If they have chosen to be silent or to see my words as something they need to "struggle" against: they should look at why they have chosen to be silent or why they feel the need to struggle.

WhiteCrow:
“Crow, I have read your post. I acknowledge it, but in all honesty I do not feel a need to reply in detail except on a few points.”

That really is a pity. In fact, your whole reply was a pity. I was hoping you'd move on and we could actually have an intelligent meaningful discussion. I was wrong.

To reply to anything you said here is fairly pointless, but I will comment on two things, because they relate to being a warrior woman, which is actually what this post is all about. The first is that I am able to say that I found your entire reply hurtful and insulting. I am sure you will see that as my choice and my misconceptions - I am quite ok with that. I choose to say this without any anger at you. I forgive you. I'm only mentioning it because it relates to being a victim vs being vulnerable. Because when I (or any woman) pretend that it is "ok to treat me bad" I'm not being noble, I'm not being "bigger" than the person hurting me... I'm allowing myself to be a victim. I'm not a victim anymore. I can be hurt and own it. Because it's only when I admit I am hurt I can then heal it by forgiving the person who has hurt me and letting go of the issue. I need to claim it first. I never understood that when I was younger. I was dumb. I thought being feminine meant denying my own hurt or anger, as if anger were "bad" or unfeminine. It's not. Anger is a very positive emotion, it's only when it is bottled or stifled it becomes a problem. And hurt is only a sign of weakness if it is connected to victim energy. A warrior can claim hurt, because a warrior isn't afraid that being vulnerable will be used as a weapon against them.

“And the notion of victim ties in with what I have felt from day one on the topic of the Warrior Woman. To me the victim mentality it is what makes the difference between a true Warrior Women: (women such as my grandmothers) and a women who fights because she is hurting to avoid the pain of the hurt: projecting that hurt onto those around her: instead of going within to resolve the hurt: the Contrary Warrior Women.”

Day one of this topic was me preparing to fight a legal battle over something that was stolen from me. For me, the warrior I needed was the one who could stand in her convictions and truth... even when the man she was dealing with kept throwing hysterical fits at how mean and nasty she was being. Interesting thing too is that he didn't do this until he found out I was female. It was only then that he started to try to make me feel guilty and sorry for him. I've found others do this to women - they try to use our emotions against us. Implying we are unfeminine,

uncaring, masculine, "butch", "shrew" "b*tch" if we claim our rights through our own strength and power.

And he nearly pulled it off. As much as I knew he was wrong I felt terrible. If it hadn't been for the fact my mom and Crabby both saw through him and wanted to kill him I'd have probably backed down. It was not an easy fight. It cost me money. I would have probably wimped out, but this time I was backed into a corner by my family who demanded I stop being a wimp and claim my power. So I can take no credit for my initial breakthrough. I was thrown in the pool, I didn't volunteer to learn to swim! And they were right - I could swim after all. And with their support I got through it -I did not let him make me a victim. It was stressful, exhausting and badly timed (I was going into hospital), but I got through it.

What makes a woman a warrior is when she can fight for her rights without needing to excuse herself to others. Soldiers don't go to war apologizing to the enemy for killing them. Warriors do what needs to be done. Women often don't. They worry far more about what others will think of them than their own self-respect. As Cinn said on another post - they don't know their worth. Being a warrior as a woman means first claiming your worth. So, for me, the lesson in being a Warrior Woman was learning that I have to understand that if someone else calls me "not nice" they are trying to control me and diminish my power. Diminish myself.

I did it - I stood up for myself and got labelled a "bad nasty woman" by a prominent powerful man. I survived. Women need to know that. There is life after letting go of being the idealized woman and becoming a REAL woman.

Wynsong:
((((White Crow)))) Well journeyed.

Just a quick note.. My own perception....and only 1 of them..

“You've done amazing work through figuring it out.” I didn't read that as condescending... I read that as joy at the work you did in UAE and in Ireland, around the part of the journey that you shared with us. You refer to that journey often, but you haven't shared particulars with us as a whole...and that was the most detailed description of your journey there that I've read...I was impressed by the quality of the journey, and so I read White Crow's comment from that perspective.

WhiteCrow:
Thank you Wynn. Your objectivity is appreciated.

I remembered another Warrior Woman ancestress over the holidays. Also on the maternal side, which is interesting. They've all been maternal side. This one was in the Napoleonic Wars. She was about 14 when her town was destroyed by the French. Her maid took her to the British, to ask them to keep her safe from pillaging French soldiers. Truth is... British soldiers weren't much better in looting situations. Something most history books forget to mention. The British weren't too keen to get involved, but one officer was honourable. To keep her safe he married her - purely on paper so that she could go with him without anyone querying it. In time that fake marriage became a genuine love match. She went with him to every battle, camping with the troups. Her journal was eventually made into a book, which is how I found her. I knew all about her husband, but nothing about her. She used to ride, with her little dog in front on the saddle. She eventually ended up with him in Africa, when he was promoted. There are two towns in South Africa named after him and her.

MonSnoLeeDra:
I've been trying to stay out of this thread but it appears that is not to be. As one who has walked a warrior's path one thing really stands out, we honor our foe's for they are seen as our equals. We hold our enemies in contempt many times for they are not our equals nor do they fight by the rules of the warrior. It's a difficult thing to understand when you don't walk it but even harder to explain to those that observe it. Yet in truth I think it one of the biggest hurdles I see in the notion of a warrior woman.

Many woman look to everyone and think they are lessor when they try to see an opponent as foe or enemy. Many times they seem to appear weak before an enemy and indecisive before a foe. Yet they do not see the difference in who they are seen and responded to. A foe will treat the person for the person and their place and importance. A foe will expect you to scream and cry yet also possess a spirit of iron. Yet that expectation is from a position of seeing you use what tools and weapons are yours to use. An enemy will ignore that and seek to belittle and demean you to undermine your position and worth. You are not seen as a worthy opponent simply something that stands before them. As such you are not believed to need or be recognized as such but made worthless at every opportunity. Your enemy seeks to demean and undermine for you are not seen as an equal or of importance. As a warrior we will fight with honor and quarter against a foe. An enemy we will seek to destroy totally for they hold no place of purpose or reputation to us. We know to face them as we would a foe to appear weak for they take our waiting and observance as a sign of fear or trepidation. They try to inspire fear and anger to be our weapons for it leaves us weaponless when we do so and often at the game plan of the enemy. Yet a foe will see it differently, especially in the position of a fight is the last thing we truly desire though we will if all else fails.

The other thing I see missing here is that the warrior is only as destructive and combative as they are creative and human. We seek to see the face behind the mask and many times temper our destructive facet with the creator. Our minds train for the battle and fight yet our minds also seek the beauty and compassion of mankind. We may kill or destroy with one hand and create the works of great emotion and feeling with the other. I suppose to the novice they see the sword and weapon upon us. They see the berserk-er rage that may take us and drive us in blood fury and battle lust. They may even see the emotional turmoil as we allow our rage and anger to build and steel us against the pain and trauma of the battlefield. They may see the flame that blazes in our eyes and the anticipation that twitches upon our limbs and breaks in our voices. Yet only the fool sees the tears that cling to us as a weakness when it is often the banishing of such emotion that it signals. The fool comments upon the anger and shout upon the wind yet fails to see the coldness that settles in upon us as we advance upon their field. The fool sees the enemy facet of things but fails to realize the contempt we hold them in. They at times see the hesitation and desire to avoid the conflict as weakness but know not the deepness of lust that clings upon the break awaiting the word to go and fight. Are you weak? No I think not as a general rule. The problem lies in the fact you fail to see a foe as separate from an enemy. But I think the truly sad part is that when you can't tell a foe from an enemy it get difficult to tell a friend from a foe.

WhiteCrow:
MSLD, That was beautiful and very inspiring.

Back…Sorry for the bitty response... I had to dash off to shove a bird in the oven. Late with dinner again! Ok, thinking on why I originally started this thread - the man who stole from me. I know it was only a legal battle, not a literal one, but it still was a big deal for me. What I can now see, reading what you wrote here, is that he was an enemy. And yes, I think many women, and even men, don't see the difference between a foe and an enemy. I had a foe on a message board long ago (2001). He was brilliant. He drove me to tears a few times (he loved to argue in minute infinite detail), but he always treated me with respect and I always considered him someone I held in esteem... even when I wanted to kill him. lol The man who stole from me showed me zero respect from the moment he stole from me, yet I still felt I should be polite to him. Ok... to be honest I wasn't at first. The lawyers said I should start off friendly, in case it was a misunderstanding, then work towards force from there. Thinking back I should have trusted my first instincts more than lawyers. My first opinion was that he was an arrogant worm with no respect for anyone. I'd have saved myself a lot of stress if I'd dealt with him from my gut instincts. AND I'd have saved even more stress if I'd had this reply of yours to read back then.

CinnamonMoon:
What a wonderful story and bit of personal family history to share, Crow, thanks!

Wynsong:
MonSnoLeeDra, is there a word that you use for an opponent that you see has being in a superior position? I can honestly say that I've been fortunate enough in my life to not have met any enemies by your definitions. I can also say that I've appreciated most of the foes I've met. However, I've frequently met people that I have squared off with, that I felt had more resources than I did. Thanks for sharing the way you would differentiate things. It is a great way to refocus. Munay

SwanFeather:
MSLD ~ That's very helpful. Thank you!

MonSnoLeeDra:
Wynsong wrote: “wynsong7 wrote: MonSnoLeeDra, is there a word that you use for an opponent that you see has being in a superior position?”

Ok here you’re getting into a further defining of position and relationship. An opponent was one that you would spar or practice with. They were usually companions or friends and you aided each other in increasing ones abilities and proficiencies with whatever they were working on. If someone that was more skilled or higher in position then they might be called an honored opponet. Think of it like a sporting event where you compete against your friends to demonstrate skills and abilities without attempting to injure. The same also held true of a foe that was more skilled or of higher positon. You would refer to them as an honored foe. The honoring recognizing their greater skill, position even weaponry. Though I think the honored facet has pretty much been relegated to history though I think some groups may still use it but not to many. perhaps those in training groups or fighting clubs like various martial arts callings. “I can honestly say that I've been fortunate enough in my life to not have met any enemies by your definitions.” Sometimes we meet more than we think yet often see them in such a lessor light that we pay them

no heed. “I can also say that I've appreciated most of the foes I've met. However, I've frequently met people that I have squared off with, that I felt had more resources than I did.” That one becomes a difficult call for more resources does not always mean a greater foe or enemy. Sometimes it simply means the manner and ways in which we have to face them needs to be planned out and approached from an angle of apparent strength though we may not actually have it at that time. “Thanks for sharing the way you would differentiate things. It is a great way to refocus.” Your very welcome.

Wynsong:
I'll sit with what you've written MonSnoLeeDra. I'm working within with some internal battles against foes of the self kind, and I'm thinking some of your words will help me to understand aspects of me, that I haven't been able to come to grips with... And allow for some settling that allows all of me to be.

CinnamonMoon:
MSLD, I just wanted to say well spoken! And as you define the warrior, you define the same tactics all need to apply to the internal battles we face. Our fears and insecurities challenge us as the battle challenges us on the field of life....be that internal as well as external...and from there we find our courage, strength and convictions to bring them forward. Thank you!

Paah Wenchokws:
“How do you, as a woman, feel about the warrior side of yourself? How do you express this aspect of the feminine and how do you feel about that?” After I read the first post in this thread I answered the above question. By the time I got done with it, I had answered another thread on the forum. I kind of weaved them all together. This thread in the Sacred Feminine, the thread on Balance in Shamanism and Spirituality. I just realized that a lot of threads lately are all leading back to the same thing. "I know what it is, do you?" When I was in my teens through my mid 30's I had a hard time with the male/female warrior and male/female side within myself. I seeked male oriented jobs and was a fierce competitor with men. The male warrior was always the dominant one. A never ending battle with each other. Sometimes it interfered with relationships. Though I truly loved the woman warrioress and feminine side of myself. There were two persona's in my late 20's through early 40's. At home I was the native woman who loved to garden, raise horses, wore long hair that was wild and unruly. Wearing long skirts

and peasant style blouses and my medicine pouches. I was a hunter and gatherer of food and medicines and fiercely independent. Many women did not like me because of this. When it was time to go to work, up went my hair, off with the clothes that I felt to as natural as my skin. I wore pants and a nice top to work before changing into the uniform. When I left the locker room, my natural nativeness and all that was truly me was gone. Bam! The male warrior was in charge. The female warrior was there, but laying softly under my skin. I did not socialize with my co-workers, "How could I?" They would not understand. At the end of the shift I un-became the male warrior. By the time I drove home, I had reverted to my own self. What a vicious cycle I lived for over 20 years. One day I decided to move out of my job that was to "protect and to serve the local community". I moved into being a protector of Mother Earth and all that is living on her. A Conservation/Environmental Planner, I was finally home and in my element. The woman warrior could be just what she wanted to be. Nothing is more fiercer than a Mother protecting her children. Then in my 40's I really began to learn more about myself. To simply put it, "I began to like myself"! I started to understand how important it is to learn about the male/female aspect within us. I believe that this is very hard to understand when we are younger. And that time and life experiences open the door. Also that the balance isn't 50/50. In my early years I had a hard time handling male/female side. I let the male dominant most of the time. Now with the experiences and tools that I use.

I am finally appreciate both sides! And I find that I am getter softer in my later years. I find a spiritual peaceful feeling. I don't feel like I am losing some of my gender identity, but am finding out who I am. I believe this is an ever changing part of men and women. We learn from each of our male and female side. We need both. It is good when both sides can communicate with each other. Most things on this Earth are part male and female and is within all of us. We cannot be birthed physically without a male and female. If we can set aside the patriarchal and matriarchal societies and all the wounds. Then look at ourselves in the whole which for a lack of words, I will say to be whole is 100%. Now in this circle of our self, our sacred witness there are many parts to us. The male and female warriors are an example. Also some of us prefer our own sex in relationships, some the opposite, and some both. And some do not want anyone. It is how we deal with the balances and unbalances within us. There are days when the masculine is dominant and there are days when the feminine is dominant. Not very often, but it does happen to me from time to time.

For example the masculine could be 70% on a day and the feminine is 30%. Or just the opposite....then the percentage could be 50/50, 60/40 and we may think we are in balance in totality. But there is an ebb and flow in our physical and spiritual life. It is within this ebb and flow that I move into my sacred witness to find a balance, an awareness and understanding. For this is the foundation, the marriage of my physical world the SOUTH and my spirit, NORTH. Be receptive/accepting of the differences between the warrior and warrioress within our physical and spiritual self. It helps me to know that to be balanced, does not mean a perfect 50/50 all the time. But by being aware of the differences between these two energies, understanding the delicate balance of physical and spiritual helps me keep my foundation firmly rooted on Mother Earth. And to be able to have movement into the higher realm of spirit. For me this is understanding is the marriage of the physical and of the spirit and I live in balance. I am a warrior, there is no doubt about that. But I am able to change things through my actions in harmonious way. Changing the movement without making rough waves in the pond.

WhiteCrow:
That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

MonSnoLeeDra:
Paah wrote: “I just realized that a lot of threads lately are all leading back to the same thing. "I know what it is, do you?"

What is scary to me is that I am willing to bet there are those that don't. I would say they are all leading back to balance upon many perspectives but then again I might be wrong as well.

When it was time to go to work, up went my hair, off with the clothes that I felt to as natural as my skin. I wore pants and a nice top to work before changing into the uniform. When I left the locker room, my natural nativeness and all that was truly me was gone. Bam! The male warrior was in charge. The female warrior was there, but laying softly under my skin. I did not socialize with my co-workers, "How could I?" They would not understand. At the end of the shift I un-became the male warrior. By the time I drove home, I had reverted to my own self.

That was something we used to see with the women in the military. Some would appear to be two different people if you were to see them in uniform and out of uniform. Sometimes the differences so great that you really would not believe that they were two sides of the same woman. Yet to many of the males I think it was deceptive also. We save some that tried so hard to be male that they came across as false and shallow. Others that actually made themselves outcasts initially for they didn't seem to grasp that their sex really didn't matter to many of us, all we cared about was that they carry their load. That and that age was not a requirement to make one accepted but a willingness to accept and a willingness to be themselves. For instance I served with one young lady that was an E-5. Now when she got to the section she though that because of her rank and age she should be treated different and expected those beneath her in rank to just accept her. Yet she initially couldn't understand why those of us equal to or greater in rank found her unworthy and didn't have much to say or support her. To us she had not earned her rank but simply was given it without the merit of proving her ability.

For instance many of us used first names with each other and our juniors. Yet to her she would jump on anyone that failed to address her by rank that was junior to her. But she couldn't understand why those of us above her imposed her own rules upon her and subjected her to her own actions. Took some time but she finally did discover it.

Sometimes the notion of balance and warrior status can be very revealing as to ones strengths. I find for me that I am or was one way at work yet completely different at home. One was a face I projected to those I had to supervise or hold a position of authority over. It basically was a face of unemotional presence built upon protocol and procedures. The face that showed purpose and focus above personal interest or intent. Yet I became myself when outside of the realm of my responsibility to set the example for my juniors and be the poster child of what one is expected to be and do. Yet over the years the one thing that has struck me so strongly is not the fact I am male and walked upon a warrior's path. Not the fact I have been a warrior shamanic practitioner or held positions of public service in one guise or another. Nope none of that. What has struck me so deeply is the number of times I have been told that those who have read my postings and advise that they assumed I was a crone (female) vice being a male. Yet it always seemed one thing that I believe is often overlooked, when it comes to physical warrior people seem to expect or imply it is male energy and position. Yet when it comes to advise coupled with compassion and ability to inspire then that is the female warrior position. As a male I must use the aggressive energies and projections yet it appears equally true that to instruct and advise I must use the female warrior energies to appear caring or concerned. Yet that to is a form of balance that I think is a need to be addressed.

CinnamonMoon:
I knew I'd like it Paah! Well spoken!

PaahWenchokws:
MonSnoLeeDra2, I have noticed in your postings that you do not mention "trust". Hmmm?

White Crow, Thank you for the thread. Cinn, Hugggs to you.

By MonSnoLeeDra2: “What is scary to me is that I am willing to bet there are those that don't. I would say they are all leading back to balance upon many perspectives but then again I might be wrong as well.” Let's see what others think.

MonSnoLeeDra:
Paah Wenchokws wrote: “MonSnoLeeDra2, I have noticed in your postings that you do not mention "trust". Hmmm?”

You know truthfully it's not a word I would have used. To me trust is like the notion I have when I drive down the road in the I trust the other driver to do certain things. The same might be said of things that dealt with my sons and sports, I trusted their coaches to have the skill sets and knowledge to do what they were being asked or paid to do.

Yet it is a shallow word when used to compare the way we looked to one another when it came to our calling and jobs. In some ways it was a blind faith that the person next to us would hold the line and do what was expected of them regardless. Yet we had the confidence to assume such for we were always tested and had to prove our worth and abilities. In fact every time we transferred to a new duty station or went TAD to a fleet unit we had to prove it. If you could prove your position and you were deemed as being creditable and consistent in action you were accepted and it was understood. It's like the letters we served under U.S.N. to me they stood for Unity, Service & Navigation. I knew those that wore the uniform I did had gone through the same initiations and hazing that I had. It didn't matter where they were from for the core was the same. Yes we had sub-set parts that pertained to our specialty training and our honor was really prov-en as was our skill in it. If we failed we usually were gone. I suppose in many ways it was not trust but integrity of character that we looked to and judged one by. In so many ways it was more than just simple trust. We didn't trust they would do a thing or be there, we knew it without a doubt. It's like you go to sea on a sub you don't trust that others will do what is right you know they will for if one fails and quits then the whole boat dies in an emergency. It was deeper than trust. Was it founded upon secure grounds? Perhaps, perhaps not yet when we were tested we passed, at least to our perspective. In 1980-81 I was on a perimeter defensive force. We knew if activated the only people we could rely upon were the people next to us. We got alarmed one night without any word of it being a drill. I was the 3rd person at the doorway and 1st through it. When I pushed into the night there was suddenly a person before me, I pushed and heard another to the side of me get hit as the other person came out rolling to the left. It was not trust it was known they (companions) would be there. that was what gave the strength to keep going and be willing to take the round and fear that were waiting on the other side of that doorway. Something deeper than trust as a word can describe.

Paah Wenchokws:
MonSnoLeeDra2, Appreciate your words.

DragonHawk:
Paah, Your story reflects that of a lot of business-women friends I have, who coming to their late 30's/early 40's, no longer found their roles in Advertising, PR, Recruitment (i.e. highly competitive industries) fulfilling. One now has a jewelry business as a hobby, another has taken to gardening as a hobby: when she never stepped out into the garden before. You mentioned Mother in your post and becoming an environmental consultant. I was wondering if you felt any shifts in spiritual awareness around the time you decided to have your career change that brought on an increased awareness of the concept of Mother? I don't mean that in a physical sense: but more in the sense of the term "Mother" as that aspect of teh Divine that is the giver of all Life?

Paah Wenchokws:
DragonHawk,

“You mentioned Mother in your post and becoming an environmental consultant. I was wondering if you felt any shifts in spiritual awareness around the time you decided to have your career change that brought on an increased awareness of the concept of Mother? I don't mean that in a physical sense: but more in the sense of the term "Mother" as that aspect of teh Divine that is the giver of all Life?” This is a kind of yes and no answer....The Divine Mother was with me even as a small child in the spiritual sense. I had no conditioning from my parents for they were both connected to the Mother. They both walked this earth with the feminine. My Mother was a witch, my Father Native American. I held onto the divine feminine and she was never lost. With my old job, I was suppressed by my own acceptance of allowing it to happen. That is ,only at work. The kind of work I did, I could not wear jewelry or clothing to honor the divine feminine. Nor did I have an office where I could have a picture, a little do-dad on my desk. It was a male and sterile environment. When I got home it was not. Not once did I have doubt of my Spirituality, nor did I lose it. But I did feel unbalanced. When I decided to leave that job, there was absolute freedom and joy to the point of bliss. It only made me open my heart more to the Divine Mother. So, yes, I felt a spiritual shift to a higher consciousness. Even at this moment I am typing, I am feeling that moment of long ago and still feel the same, joy and freedom. I feel that when women go through shifts, it seems to be in 10 year cycles. We should strive to step outside of the box and try something different. I not speaking just of changing jobs if we feel unfulfilled. And if we cannot move into another job, then I think we should pick up some kind of hobby as you mentioned. Or take private time once a day for just our self. We can get fulfillment from many sources. Knowing that the Divine Mother is in all of us.

DragonHawk:
Hey Paah Thanks for your reply. The reason I asked was because of the hair symbology. In various lores that influenced the Celtic and in some Celtic lores long flowing hair was considered a symbol of raw fertility and virginity: the maiden. Hair tied or short was a symbol of the more mature women or mother. But there are other, deeper connotations to it too. Flowing locks were a symbol of Feminine Fire the "Wild Women" or Chaos which, unlike in our highly organized societies today, were chaos is frowned upon, was linked to fertility. Short/tied hair was a symbol of Masculine Fire or Reason. For men it was the opposite: a beardless man was considered a symbol of youth and in many ancient societies a young male (ie one who had not reached the age to grow a beard) was considered and classed as feminine and was also considered a symbol of Chaos. A beard represented an older man or father and Reason.

It just struck me that your career was that of an enforcer of the law (which sounds the same as lore) and law is the means by which societies are organized. Chaos is deemed the antithesis to an organized society and unacceptable. In your own space you were woman in the sense of "wild woman", but out in the "world" you career was more that of its opposite. You found balance between the two and I was wondering if there was an event that brought about that balance or if it just came naturally? Given your upbringing it sounds like for you it came about naturally, but I wonder if it does for all women? This is why I mentioned about my female friends: they seem to have understood something needed to change, but not how to change it. I know it is a toughie for us guys but like you, once I got over the shock Chaos brought I did see it as a blissful event. In a way many of the Celtic festivals represent the Union between Chaos and Reason and are celebrated to create the Balance which brings the potential that Chaos represented out into the World of Form. In Irish Celtic Lore that Union was created by the Fire Goddess Brigid and Fire God Lugh. Brigid's fire bubbled the Cauldron (fertility vessel) in the Otherworld which, on coming to bubbling, was tapped by the Spear of Lugh (Directed Will). The untamed, undirected Chaos acted upon by Reason (Directed Will). The Waters of the Cauldron (Inspiration?) issued forth into the Middle Realm (Earth) where they were acted upon by the Wind (Air: Lugh in his Middle Realm form) to give them direction, and then by the Brigid again (as the Feminine Fire of the Middle Realm, the Sun) to give them conviction/passion. Without Lugh (Reason), the Cauldron just bubbled and bubbled and brought no fertility (Inspiration) to the Middle Realm. I met Chaos last year, though I did not realize it at the time. I was out in the UAE, a Journey that I had created by enacting the Union of Mother Earth and Father Sky in ritual to bring forward a job I was about to have an interview for out there. First time I had ever tried such a thing. I gave the waters that followed direction by accepting the job offer when it came and I set about finding out as much as I could about the Middle East from people I knew who had lived there: including an old member from here who lived in the UAE, but was from my part of the UK. This created Passion for the Journey. Brigid's Fire was very evident in the 45+ degree temperatures I found when I arrived in the UAE: as were the Waters in the 95% humidity. But I had not studied Celtic Moon lore, which brought the answers as I assimilated the Journey this year: so all this meant nothing to me, though the notions of the Chaos created as we move from quarter of the Medicine Wheel (South to West in this case) was shown to me through this Journey. Soon after arrival, I was visited in my hotel room by Chaos. I didn't realize that that's who she was, and did nothing. Had I directed her with my will, my Journey out there could have been a lot different! Things did not go well. I caught Hep A (though that was only confirmed when I got back to the UK: and I was given a multitude of antibiotics out there that made things worse not better) and the guy who was supposed to be my mentor in the company I had just joined left me to sink: I found out later that this was office politics as I had got the job offer ahead of a buddy of his. I transferred from the Abu Dhabi office to Dubai which is when the fun really began. My company hadn't sorted my work visa so I had to exit the UAE, via the border post with Oman and get a new tourist visa stamp in my passport when re-entering the UAE. This meant crossing the desert between Dubai and Oman. Nearer Dubai the desert was scrubby and not particularly pretty, but out in the middle I came to a section of pure-sand dunes and stopped the car: half expecting Lawrence of Arabia to come over the top of one of the Dunes. It was November now and the sun had abated to mid 30's, so it was bearable to get out of the car. As I lit a cigarette leaning

against the car on the empty road, the Spirit I had met in my hotel room came again out in the middle of the desert. At first I thought it was a mini-tornado, but she soon fanned out to cover the whole of the massive expanse of desert in front of me and then beyond. Amongst other things she said she would "cleanse this place and take it back unto herself". I didn't like Dubai: too brash for my tastes, so that a feminine spirit might "cleanse" the place made sense to me. I didn't realize she meant me! She did cleanse Dubai: a week later its economy virtually collapsed overnight and three weeks later, after having being made redundant as all construction stopped regardless of stage of completion, I was back in the UK, but not before a lesson in using my will that got me home without the massive debts I could have incurred in rent and fine because my company not having got my work visa sorted. Another thing that caught my eye was the age you seemed to come to your acknowledgements: similar age to the women I spoke of did. There is a saying here (don't know if it is as strong in the US) that "life begins at 40" so around 40 seemed pertinent; is this when we begin to find balance: in our 40's? I've just turned 43. Also, traditionally Jewish men are not initiated into Kabbalah till 40 as they are not deemed mature enough till then to be so initiated. Jewish women were thought to initiate naturally to the teachings around this time, so were not taught Kabbalah: which was considered the male equivalent of what women came to innately. The Hebrews and Europeans came from the same Indo-European cultural traditions that eventually informed the Celtic (and some say the NA), though in Celtic societies Wisdom Lore was taught from an early age. So that's my reasoning for asking: I just wondered if there was an event that to you marked a point where you noticed the change?

Paah Wenchokws:
DragonHawk, Thank you for the information on the Celtic Lore. I totally agree with the hair symbols. I do want to share with you that Native Americans wear their hair long so that the Great Spirit can hear their prayers. Prayers come out from the end of the hairs.

“You found balance between the two and I was wondering if there was an event that brought about that balance or if it just came naturally? Given your upbringing it sounds like for you it came about naturally, but I wonder if it does for all women?” I did come by balance naturally, but there is something I would like to touch on. It takes a lot of energy to stay balanced in certain times and there were many times and many situations that I was not balanced. There were times that it was difficult to get back to my natural balance. As you know my type of job was emotionally difficult at times. Being the one woman on the streets I was called upon to assist when there was a trauma to a woman. Be it a rape, abuse, notifying of bad news. The male officers were hesitate and I can understand that. My heart inside wept for I could not physically hold a woman in her time of need. It was against the "departments rules". Though it was comforting for most women that I was there. There were also women who did not like a woman police officer and said so with choice words. Always having to control ones balance can wear one down both physically and mentally. While my spiritual part of me did not.

I believe that was the glue that brought me back into balance. And along with what my natural ways are, it was more easier for me. We have to recognize when we start to become unbalance and accept it, then do something about it. I do not know if it comes naturally for all women, I would like to think so. I keep thinking that the moment we are born, the conditioning starts. Or actually I am thinking that our balance starts in our Mothers womb prior to being born. For we are nurtured in many ways from our Mother such as her mental state. "Were we conceived and created from love, that is both parents wanting us?" "Was it a forced pregnancy?" "Was our Mother a balanced woman while she was carrying us?" I have a story to tell and this happened a couple of months ago. A friend of mine remarried and the man had a vasectomy. They are in love and she had a child from a previous marriage. Anyway she/they wanted to have a child and she wanted it to be a boy. He had the reversal of his tubes untied and the pregnancy was a success. Before she knew the sex of the child, she just knew it was a boy. Well, she found out it is a girl child. She was so disappointed and had to let everyone she came into contact with know how she felt. Three months later she still feels the same way. "What is she going to project on this child as she grows up?" I finally had to say something to her. I said, "Do you think that the disappointment you are feeling will affect the child?" "That the child might sense it in your womb?" She just looked at me. So I am thinking here out of the box, that balance starts before we are birthed and that the conditioning comes after the birth.

“There is a saying here (don't know if it is as strong in the US) that "life begins at 40" so around 40 seemed pertinent; is this when we begin to find balance: in our 40's? I've just turned 43.”

Yes, it is common here in the U.S. and other places in the world. I think one of the reason's we start to find balance in our 40's is that we have moved past the teenage and young adult years of finding and making our way. Also the 40's most women have had their children and the children are mostly grown or are grown. Also our hormone's, life's lessons and experiences have parts. Can not forget the wisdom and mistakes we have gathered. The 40's are a time that women recognize "their gathering baskets". That is what they have collected throughout their life. It is the time to go through what we have collected, review, get rid of or keep. The gathering basket for me is where I put all my experiences, lessons learned, this also includes past things that were negative and or positive. It is time to do cleaning and unclutter ourselves. My 40's was a time of self-realization, my 50's is when I came into full power and the understanding of that power.

DragonHawk, enjoy what is about to be revealed of yourself by yourself.

DragonHawk:
Hey Paah, “Prayers come out from the end of the hairs.”

I don't know about Celtic as I have not come across it, but I know that in Hebrew lore hair represented a tube through which Inspiration (i.e. "Hidden Wisdom") could issue forth: in ancient Indo-European lore the head was believed to be the seat of the soul and source of Wisdom. Given the common ancestry of Hebrew and Celtic via the Indo-Europeans, I guess the same hair references could be true of the Celtic: but I haven't come across it so far in my Journeys into the Celtic. But in Hebrew lore hair is as a symbol of Hidden Wisdom, just as the Sow of Winter is the promise of hidden fertility in Celtic Lore.. The Celtic year is split between the Dark/Winter/infertile phase and the Light/Summer/fertile phase in terms of what is seen in the mundane: but even in the Dark/Winter/Infertile aspect, the promise of fertility is always there: it's just hidden form our mundane eyes. The Green Man was the visible sign of fertility in Summer and the Sow the Visible sign of the promise of fertility in Winter. In other words, the positive aspects of the feminine, the creative forces, were always denoted by "hidden" references: largely because human life started in the womb: a "hidden" place. The destructive forces were those that were seen. i.e. Death and the barren nature of the Land in Winter. So I find your story about conditioning in the womb interesting as it does tie in with Celtic thinking: "hidden" conditioning. Most people who saw you in your job would have seen that as a Warrior Woman aspect: not the you that you were at home, or the balanced you have found today: the you that was hidden from them: just found that interesting in light of Celtic notions of the feminine. I can see the "preserving life" of your job and the "nurturing" aspect of the situations you speak of: which I see as aspects of the Warrior Woman, and how hard it would be to retain that balance if you couldn't reach out to the women. I know a friend of mine who, as a newly qualified police officer, was stationed in a part of our city that at one time had the title of "gun capital of Britain": this was fifteen years ago when things were a lot worse than they are today: and even today, despite massive injection of regeneration funding in the last ten years, it is still an area were the police have to tread very carefully and few victims/witnesses of crime speak up. As one of only three female officers on that beat out of maybe fifty, she found it hard to keep her balance when confronted with the type of crimes you speak of and eventually left the force after a two year stint on that beat: we spoke about it at the time, and despite the fact she recognized that crimes against women was just one part of the story of that area, and she was called to many more gangland shootings than crimes against women, it was the crimes against women she found the hardest to deal with and keep her own balance in the face of and the reason she left the force. Another aspect to my view of the Warrior Women comes from the term Banshee. The "shee" part of Banshee (the Irish "Wild Woman" archetype) comes from "Sidhe" the Druidic "Transendant Wisdom" or "Web of the Wise": denoting that the Wisdom was not of this world: but of the Otherworlds. So to me the Warrior Women also fights for life in the Otherworlds: indeed in

Celtic lore many of the battles are "Otherworldly": what we might call the Within worlds here: the battle between the ego-self and the spirit-Self.

Firestarter/Karen:
Sometimes as women we do have to pick up our sword and do our work to unbind ourselves so that we might be free, free of the chains that bind us. In my case they were emotional chains from my youth. And, still today I notice a little chain here or there that needs some "attention".....I have a Spirit sword. Some people innocently chain others, it’s all they know or they fear a woman growing to her fullest Spiritual potential. AAyyeeeeee!!!

Wynsong:
Karen, it is so nice to see you again. Munay

WhiteCrow:
Wow... I'd forgotten this thread. Thank you Yuku for sending me an update and bringing me back. Karen, I love that image/idea of cutting chains.

“Some people innocently chain others, it’s all they know or they fear a woman growing to her fullest Spiritual potential.”

Aho!

Last night on TV I watched a show that talked about the Hindu Goddess Kali. What surprised me is that Kali's day is "mother's day" in India. It's not only the day they worship Kali as "Mother", but also the day they give gifts and acknowledge all mothers. A warrior goddess used for mother's day? Perfect. Who is Kali? Kali is the fearful and ferocious form of the mother goddess. Kali's fierce form is strewed with awesome symbols. Her black complexion symbolizes her all-embracing and transcendental nature. Says the Mahanirvana Tantra: "Just as all colors disappear in black, so all names and forms disappear in her". Her nudity is primeval, fundamental, and transparent like Nature — the earth, sea, and sky. Kali is free from the illusory covering, for she is beyond the all maya or "false consciousness." Kali's garland of fifty human heads that stands for the fifty letters in the Sanskrit alphabet, symbolizes infinite knowledge. Her girdle of severed human hands signifies work and liberation from the cycle of karma. Her white teeth show her inner purity, and her red lolling tongue indicates her omnivorous nature —

"her indiscriminate enjoyment of all the world's 'flavors'." Her sword is the destroyer of false consciousness and the eight bonds that bind us. Her three eyes represent past, present, and future, — the three modes of time — an attribute that lies in the very name Kali ('Kala' in Sanskrit means time). The eminent translator of Tantric texts, Sir John Woodroffe in Garland of Letters, writes, "Kali is so called because She devours Kala (Time) and then resumes Her own dark formlessness."

Wynsong:
I haven't fully read your post White Crow, but Kali came up for me, yesterday...and now you mention her in a thread that also gave me notification.... Now to read the post.

Well, now just....(an inappropriate SL word here). That explains a lot. Kali and I, are apparently going to get intimate. See you all on the flip side. Munay

WhiteCrow:
Wynn, She's an awesome power to dance with. What struck me with the TV show was how feminine she was too. Very beautiful, very primal woman, but also very pretty and ultra feminine. Just such an awesome goddess to embrace as Mother.

Firestarter/Karen:
Wynsong7 wrote: “Karen, it is so nice to see you again. Munay” Awwww...........I am so glad you are still here!!!!!!!!! really! ((((((HUGS))))))

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